Fair enough. I'm not 'anti-diesel' but I am against misrepresentation of the facts and data. For example, "a matter of time," when a diesel hybrid prototype was already shown by GM called the "Precept":

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...12/ai_59282149

". . .
Under the hood (actually the trunk), GM is using a hybrid diesel-electric powerplant hooked up to a complex dual-axle regenerative system using both heat and electric traction to boost efficiency. Engineers say right now, their battery specification is nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) packs provided by Ovonic Battery Co., a joint venture with GM. The 28 battery modules weigh 197lb. and produce more than 43 kW of power. A liquid cooling system circulates between the battery cells, maintaining an optimum operating temperature.
. . ."

Then there are nearly 300, GM hybrid-electric diesel buses already on the road. I believe Martin once suggest the actual number is closer to 500. Diesel hybrid-electrics already exist although, thanks to some incredibly short-sighted decisions, not by US manufacturers.

Then you have this interesting problem that given the large number of US diesel trucks, the local fast-food restaurants have NOT been adopted by free-fuel seeking diesels. No, we still find them filling up at the local diesel filling stations. Reality doesn't quite agree with the faint odor of reality, does it?

Only when dealing with those who ignore the facts and data to publish anti-hybrid nonsense. It is the arrogance of the facts and data being on the side of the stronger hybrids.

Well this photo tells a tale, like this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC Unlike normal cars, hybrids such as the Prius, whose proud owners include Gwyneth Paltrow, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts and ex-Tory leader Michael Howard, . . .

And Bob Wilson who is here to answer this obvious envy of their betters. The term 'Prius envy' comes to mind since obviously the wealth and position of these owners, cited by name, is being used to make a 'class warfare' attack on hybrids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC . . . are powered by a battery that contains nickel - as well as a traditional petrol engine. Toyota gets the metal from a Canadian company whose smelting facility at Sudbury has spewed sulphur dioxide into the air for more than a century.

Mining nickel predates the Prius by 94 years YET the author of this article and person who decided to quote it seems to blame the Prius and hybrid-electric cars for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC The car giant buys about 1,000 tons a year from the plant, which is owned by Inco, one of the world's largest nickel-mining companies.

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms/cmy/2002revu/nic_e.htm

"In 2002, Canadian production of nickel in concentrates was 188 100 t and refined nickel production was 144 500 t (Class I plus Class II production, per the International Nickel Study Group definition). All Canadian mines exploit sulphide ores in Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. . . ."

So do the math:

1,000 / 144,500 = 0.7%

The author and apparently the quoter of this blatant anti-hybrid propaganda sheet seem to see the 'mote' of hybrid nickel and ignore the 99.3% used in such things as nickel steel used in . . . diesel engine blocks and moving parts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC Fumes emerging from the factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in outer space. Although efforts have been made in recent years to reduce emissions from the plant's 1,250ft chimney - dubbed the Superstack - campaigners say the factory is still responsible for some of the worst pollution in North America. David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada, said: "The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside. "The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute the pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout right across northern Ontario. Things improved in the Nineties but the plant is still responsible for large-scale emissions of sulphur dioxide. "Sudbury remains a major environmental and health problem. The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high."

This is a d*mn lie because it ignores the huge use of nickel in high strength steels, cooking ware and things other than hybrid electric batteries. It is a direct, anti-hybrid propaganda claim by the author and supported by the anti-hybrid quoter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC Once the nickel is smelted it is sent 10,000 miles on a container ship journey which in itself consumes vast quantities of fuel and energy. First it is shipped to Europe's biggest nickel refinery at Clydach near Swansea, South Wales. From there it is transported to the Chinese cities of Dalian and Shenyang to be turned into a lightweight substance called nickel foam. The final stage of the manufacturing process takes place in Japan where the Prius batteries are made.

A 1,000 tons of nickel barely makes the ships ride deeper in the water. For example, the "Star Osakana - Container / Cargo Bulker" has a payload 13,900 tons.
http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/star-osakana/

At any one time, there 3,500 cargo ships with 15 million containers holding up to 4 tons per container. The trade in nickel for batteries is not even close to a significant shipping load to the planet. Unlike many products, the hybrid electrics are reducing the amount of oil being shipped.

But the real lie is comparing the tradeoff, how many megatons of oil that will never be shipped and burnt because the hybrid electrics don't waste gas like non-hybrids and diesels in city traffic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC Toyota produced nearly 180,000 Prius cars last year, some 4,000 of which were sold in Britain. Last week 14 MPs from all parties claimed they had exchanged their petrol-guzzling vehicles for a Prius or similar hybrid. But some experts doubt whether the Prius even wins the argument over fuel consumption. Robert Fowler, of the Battery Vehicle Association, said: "It is questionable whether it does any more miles to the gallon than a good diesel." The hybrid system has a very small battery so most of the time it's operating as a petrol car, particularly out of town and above 30mph."

Until we look at standard driving tests applied to equal sized diesel and hybrid-electrics:

37/44 - city/hwy - 2006 Volkswagen Golf Diesel, manual
60/51 - city/hwy - 2006 Toyota Prius, automatic

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

The problem the anti-hybrid crowd faces is any sort of disciplined, head-to-head testing by engineers keeps coming back with the serious hybrid electrics beating the diesels hands down. Only non-engineering tests give different results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC A Toyota spokesman said last night: "I cannot confirm the source of the nickel used in the Prius battery. It is true there is a slight increase in the energy required to produce the materials for the car."

Where does the nickel used in the engines of the diesels come from?

The factual errors and half-truths of this quoted article pretty well paints an ugly picture of the type of dishonesty used to argue against hybrids. To bring such nonsense to this forum, invites a point by point refutation. I don't have anything against diesels but I have a big problem with those who use "Cato" math to attack hybrid electrics.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
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