Hi MGBGT:

___You are correct in many respects but the average driver will not take the average non-hybrid to any greater % above EPA highway or City then he would actually driving the hybrid. The Advantage the hybrid’s have are many including built in Autostops/ICE off logic, IMA/HSD pack starts, multiple gauges to help you learn let alone control your FE, and small ICE’s that are as efficient as all get out.

___Also, I do not promote P&G for everyone in all circumstances. P&G as Eric has pointed out is just one more tool in a toolbox filled with many. If you are in a traffic tie up that is not dead stopped, FAS’s can work wonders as I use them everyday. Do this for me. Map out a traffic jam in your head. Does accelerating to 20 miles per hour, coasting back down to 10 miles per hour with brakes, re-accelerating back up to 30 miles per hour, coasting back down to 0 miles per hour with brakes sound like a normal way to drive? You and I do this every time we are in a nightmare called a “Traffic Jam! The Prius II folks instead of pulling a FAS will simply just adjust their P&G technique to lower speeds and different ranges. Another tool in the tool box and one you could use any time you are in one of those ****ed traffic nightmares driving the Prius II! It is a lot easier in a Prius II then it is in a non-hybrid and even an IMA equipped hybrid of any sort! Trust me on this one

___I cannot describe the higher FE available from a hybrid vs. non-hybrid any better then possibly the following: When driving GreenAndBlue’s relatively brand new AH for one week on my own back and forth work commute, I could nail down 55 mpg within a matter of 20 miles almost at will once I started to get the feel for her. It does have tranny limitations that my non-hybrid Accord does not have through some situations but that is not a discussion for this thread. My non-hybrid Accord I4 simply was not nearly as forgiving in the FE department as the AH was. With a lot more work, I can approach and sometimes exceed the capability of the AH but very rarely.

___Now the real meat of the discussion … Place the same driver in either the AH or the non-hybrid I4 and the AH will finish out on top in just about any scenario one could imagine other then maybe a 2 minute trip to the gas station in 40 degree temps or below from dead cold. In the case of the AH, I am not really speaking about all of its whiz bang electric’s but its relatively simple VCM and Autostop which is included in the AH’s hybrid package. With that, let’s consider a Prius II or HCH? Again, if you place the same driver in either, he will absolutely destroy the FE he would have received in a Ford Taurus or Focus, Chevrolet Impala or Cobalt, DCC Intrepid or Neon. In fact, it wouldn’t even be close! You may argue that the Prius II and HCH average just 48 and 46 mpg respectively here at GH. If you can just imagine what the Ford Focus’, Chevrolet Cobalt’s, and Dodge Neon’s in the real world are actually achieving, you would be sickened! Take a look at Focusfanatics.com for a reality check on real world FE from guys driving a Focus day in and day out without the hybrid gauge training or the hybrid’s efficiencies that you are paying for. You do have guys smoking their tires at every third stop as well as those just driving to achieve higher FE but we are looking at an overall average irregardless of the group abilities to achieve higher FE. The average Focus pilot is receiving in the low to mid 20’s at best! Are the hybrids killing the average Ford Focus’ FE because of the hybrid electronics? The Hybrid’s efficiencies? Much better habits when an FCD is placed in front of a hybrid pilot? It doesn’t really matter because in the end, the average Joe driving his Ford Focus, Chevrolet Cobalt, or Dodge Neon back and forth to work is receiving ~ ½ of what that same average Joe would receive if he has an HCH or Prius II instead. Even considering a Toyota Echo, Corolla, or Civic, I know guys at work with all three including my son now driving and not updating tanks in the old Corolla. They are getting in the mid to upper 20’s in what you would have thought would be 38 - 40 + mpg vehicles! It is absolutely disgusting to see real world results in comparison to the EPA because those real world drivers simply do not know better!

___Sorry for ranting in this excellent thread but remember how each and every one of us have read in the past that the EPA estimates are not achievable in anything you or I drive? This is an absolute truth for those that do not know any better and unfortunately for us all, the non-hybrid pilots do not have a clue because they are unwilling, unable, or un-trainable, or are simply missing the tools to succeed in the art of exceeding the seriously under reported EPA estimates! Just thinking about the EPA changing their methodology to better mimic today’s habits makes me stand back and pause. Sure we have higher speed limits, more traffic, and faster accelerations, whatever. Does that mean the average non-hybrid pilot should drive above the speed limits? Drive foolishly in traffic jams? Drive with his or her foot into the floor thinking they are performing a 0 - 60 miles per hour test run for Car and Driver? This is the non-hybrid’s own Achilles’ heel. They have no way of knowing what they are receiving except when they drop $40.00 at the pump and say Oh my god, that is double what I paid just 2 years ago!

___Double-Trinity, in regards to Insight’s w/ MIMA, when the MIMA faithful begin to blow the lmpg posted below out of the water, I too will be impressed. Up to this point in time, I haven’t seen much of anything in terms of even 1 standalone tank let alone a years + worth! I will be meeting up with Rick Reese this weekend and have a good look at his MIMA modded Insight myself. I can see some instances where it would be very useful for increasing one’s FE BUT only in relatively limited situations. Until those tanks begin showing up, I hope you can understand my hesitancy in proclaiming that this is the end all of hybrid mods … I do wish I would have learned the P&G technique long ago when I still owned mine because the only P&G I ever did was from 0 - 30 miles per hour. I could peg the FCD at 150 + mpg over 20 + miles but who would drive over 2,000 + miles on a tank averaging 12 - 13 miles per hour? Nobody! If I would have known, I would have used a 31- 46 miles per hour or so range and hopefully pushed a nice 125 + mpg - 200 + mile segment out of her on my own FE testing segment/road? With that, my Insight’s tank after tank data came from 95 + % back and forth to work and that is the way I recorded it. Even my best segment was recorded from dead cold parking lot to parked in the drive after some 95 miles. If I would have cherry picked and instead took a particularly beautiful for Hypermiling, 34 mile segment of that commute with a flying start on either of the 2 particular days I hit that high, do you think I would have punched out > then the 117.2 mpg I received in the non-MIMA modded Insight? Who knows, maybe I will get another chance sometime in the future?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net