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Old 07-31-2006, 11:10 PM
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Mr. Kite Mr. Kite is offline
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: John
Location: Colorado
Hybrids: 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid, 2007 Toyota Highlander Hybrid
Posts: 707
Default Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics

Quote:
Originally Posted by worthywads
Honda Civic Hybrid vs Civic
This one isn't easily compared as Honda essentially has zero flexibility for adding options. All "options" are actually dealer installed accesories. The Hybrid can not be had with the moon roof that is standard on the EX, an $800+ value difference considering the Camry moonroof is $940. I don't include it in my comparison.

MSRP Hybrid = 22700 / EX Auto = 19810 / Difference = $2890
KBB Hybrid = 23494 / EX Auto = 19520 / Difference = $3974

MSRP Hybrid = 22700 / EX MT = 19010 / Difference = $3690
KBB Hybrid = 23494 / EX MT = 18742 / Difference = $4752

In this case there is an available MT and I personally would only consider the non-hybrid with the MT and included it even though the Hybrid is CVT. I don't see anything unfair about that comparison, I'd have to pay $4752 more than the comparable Hybrid and not have the moon roof. Why Honda doesn't choose to sell a MT hybrid for $800 less than the CVT, I don't understand. I don't know anything about the CVT, is it possible that it actually cost less to manufacture than either the Auto or MT? Why aren't they available on non-hybrids?

$6000 may not be correct but $4000 appears to be the minimum. Please critique.

Tax deductions and credits of course reduce these differences, but hopefully not for long.
I'll focus on the Civic since it is the one I am most familiar with. I think MSRP is the fairest way to compare (with the necessary adjustments--moonroof, climate control, various displays, spoiler). Actual selling prices are artificially inflated by increased demand from various incentives. In the long term future, these will probably not be available. If I remember correctly, the hybrid adds climate control, various displays, rear deck spoiler and loses the moonroof. According to Honda's website, the rear deck spoiler is a $379 option. I really don't know the value of climate control and displays, but an ~$200-400 adjustment (sunroof minus hybrid additions--even more if the sunroof is worth more) is fair. This would suggest that the hybrid premium for the Civic is maybe $3100-3300. Of course, this also assumes that the MSRP is actually related to the price to build the vehicles (i.e. are the manufacturers eating hybrid costs). I have no idea how big of an assumption this is.

In a personal financial assessment, I think using an MT to hybrid comparison is fine if that is what you prefer. However, the majority of people do not buy MTs and I share the frustrations of most of the people here when that comparison is used in a hybrid-bashing article to make generalizations. In my case, I would not have considered a manual transmission for this vehicle.

Also, I think using tax incentives are fine for a personal financial assessment. However, they are probably inappropriate for discussing long term viability of hybrids.

In my case, I will be getting back ~$4650 in tax credits and this easilty offsets the hybrid premium. I was able to get the vehicle for under MSRP and the tax credits made it much cheaper than the non-hybrid. In addition, I replaced a vehicle that had FE around 24-25mpg (I was very happy with the trade-in value on this vehicle--~$1500 over KBB and edmunds TMV).

Anyway, I didn't see anything that unfair about your assessment. I just thought I would throw in my own comments.

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Last edited by Mr. Kite : 08-01-2006 at 09:34 PM.
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