The most efficient of the Hybrids...
#1
06-06-2004, 02:17 PM
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Gainesville, GA
Posts: 808
Hi all,
Before i leave for the week, i think I'll give ya'll some food for though. Looking through the milage database you would easily think that the Insight is the most efficient of the hybrids...this may be true, but I'm doing calculations to find the truth. Using the average data from the milage database I will calculate the number of gallons to propel a pound one mile for each of the cars assuming a 160 lb. driver. That will give us one efficiency figure....but to be fair. The other hybrids all have seats for more than two....so per person who will arise victorious?
Single occupant
Civic Hybrid: 7.558 e-6 gallon/mile lb.
Insight: 7.437 e-6 gallon/ mile lb.
Prius HSD: 6.774 e-6 gallon/mile lb.
Need I go further? Suprisingly...the Prius is the most efficient per pound...I will continue no further. As you add passengers the efficiency gap will continue to rise. The HCH will become more efficient per passenger than the Insight...making the Insight the least efficient :blink: STARTALING!!
Cheers,
Steven
Before i leave for the week, i think I'll give ya'll some food for though. Looking through the milage database you would easily think that the Insight is the most efficient of the hybrids...this may be true, but I'm doing calculations to find the truth. Using the average data from the milage database I will calculate the number of gallons to propel a pound one mile for each of the cars assuming a 160 lb. driver. That will give us one efficiency figure....but to be fair. The other hybrids all have seats for more than two....so per person who will arise victorious?
Single occupant
Civic Hybrid: 7.558 e-6 gallon/mile lb.
Insight: 7.437 e-6 gallon/ mile lb.
Prius HSD: 6.774 e-6 gallon/mile lb.
Need I go further? Suprisingly...the Prius is the most efficient per pound...I will continue no further. As you add passengers the efficiency gap will continue to rise. The HCH will become more efficient per passenger than the Insight...making the Insight the least efficient :blink: STARTALING!!
Cheers,
Steven
#3
06-06-2004, 03:36 PM
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Gainesville, GA
Posts: 808
Jason,
I was going to do it by BTU amount...but like i've said before, i'm lazy. Anyway...to move into a more fair ground...we will simply go for efficiency by occupant. I will use the numbers above to adjust the milage for the extra weight (using 160 lbs. per ocupant). These numbers will be the gallon amount per occupant per mile (highest wins).
#1 The PRIUS HSD!!!! at .00500 gallons per mile per occupant
#2 The HCH (in close second) at .00523 gallons per mile per occupant
#3 The Insight (yes it is in last place :huh: ) at .00807 gallons per mile per occupant
Sorry Insighters....ya'll arent as efficient as you thought. doh!
Cheers,
Steven
I was going to do it by BTU amount...but like i've said before, i'm lazy. Anyway...to move into a more fair ground...we will simply go for efficiency by occupant. I will use the numbers above to adjust the milage for the extra weight (using 160 lbs. per ocupant). These numbers will be the gallon amount per occupant per mile (highest wins).
#1 The PRIUS HSD!!!! at .00500 gallons per mile per occupant
#2 The HCH (in close second) at .00523 gallons per mile per occupant
#3 The Insight (yes it is in last place :huh: ) at .00807 gallons per mile per occupant
Sorry Insighters....ya'll arent as efficient as you thought. doh!
Cheers,
Steven
#4
06-06-2004, 03:40 PM
Basically what you're telling us is that HSD is most efficient for heavy automobiles & more cargo. I believe that's already a known fact. Hybrids are, theoretically, supposed to do have a larger influence on heavy vehicles like SUVs. Remember, Honda has yet to introduce a real full hybrid system!
#5
06-07-2004, 07:22 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
....And we have yet to see either an HCH or HSD obtain +110MPG...and driving around the speed limits at that! B)
#6
06-07-2004, 09:06 AM
Hi Stevo12886:
___And another take on the various Hybrids’ efficiency. In other words, is the glass half empty or is it half full?
Curb weight w/ 200 pound driver:
Prius II: 3,090 pounds
Prius I: 2,965 pounds
HCH Manual: 2,884 pounds
Insight Manual: 2,080 pounds
Average MPG per the Real Mileage Database (this morning):
Prius II: 48.3 mpg
Prius I: 48.3 mpg
HCH Manual: 46.9 mpg
Insight Manual: 66.9 mpg
Average mpg/pound:
Honda Insight: .0322 mpg/pound
Prius I: .0163 mpg/pound
HCH: .0163 mpg/pound
Prius II: .0156 mpg/pound
___I would say that either the Prius II needs to lose a little weight or that there are “Lies, **** Lies, … and Statistics”! I did take some liberties by rearranging the data to show the Insight in a much more positive light of course
___Overall, the Atkinsonized 1.5 L of the 04 Prius w/ HSD is one darn efficient setup given the Prius’ weight but at the expense of being the slowest car in the Toyota lineup. It is too bad Toyota didn’t also place the atkinsonized PZEV 1.5 L w/ its entire 76 HP without HSD in a 2,235 # Echo (including driver) w/ a stick for ~ similar performance but at a much more affordable $10 - $13K price instead of the $26 - $30K + prices we are seeing Prius II’s go out for today. I know, I know. The lux additions and larger size make it worth the price for many but $16K + worth it? An EPA estimate of 55 - 60 + mpg on the highway would be a given using a slightly taller fifth gear in an Echo w/ the Prius’ Atkinsonized ICE imho. I am considering the Echo’s much lower weight and smaller frontal area even with the higher Cd. EPA City estimates of the Echo wouldn’t be near that of the Prius II but I bet you would see an actual EPA city estimate as well as reachable 40 mpg (the Echo already has a 35/43 city/hwy EPA estimate w/ the 108 HP - 1.5 L) vs. the almost unreachable EPA city estimate of 60 mpg of the Prius II? Wouldn’t that turn your head if 100,000 + atkinsonized and PZEV based Echo’s were sold vs. 50,000 + Prius II’s and they both received similar combined mileage? Which overall solution would be better for the environment? 50,000 Prius II PZEV’s at $26K + or 100,000 + Echo PZEV’s at $10 - $13K? The same with the Honda lineup. Why they didn’t simply drive up the final drive ratios of the EX/LX/DX in the Civic lineup for even more hwy mileage yet still maintain similar performance with lower costs in comparison to that of the Hybrid’s is beyond me?
___If we are going to lose performance to drive a Hybrid (this year anyway?), why not just take the performance away from a std. ICE propelled automobile and receive close to Hybrid type mileage but at a price much more affordable to the average citizen?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___And another take on the various Hybrids’ efficiency. In other words, is the glass half empty or is it half full?
Curb weight w/ 200 pound driver:
Prius II: 3,090 pounds
Prius I: 2,965 pounds
HCH Manual: 2,884 pounds
Insight Manual: 2,080 pounds
Average MPG per the Real Mileage Database (this morning):
Prius II: 48.3 mpg
Prius I: 48.3 mpg
HCH Manual: 46.9 mpg
Insight Manual: 66.9 mpg
Average mpg/pound:
Honda Insight: .0322 mpg/pound
Prius I: .0163 mpg/pound
HCH: .0163 mpg/pound
Prius II: .0156 mpg/pound
___I would say that either the Prius II needs to lose a little weight or that there are “Lies, **** Lies, … and Statistics”! I did take some liberties by rearranging the data to show the Insight in a much more positive light of course
___Overall, the Atkinsonized 1.5 L of the 04 Prius w/ HSD is one darn efficient setup given the Prius’ weight but at the expense of being the slowest car in the Toyota lineup. It is too bad Toyota didn’t also place the atkinsonized PZEV 1.5 L w/ its entire 76 HP without HSD in a 2,235 # Echo (including driver) w/ a stick for ~ similar performance but at a much more affordable $10 - $13K price instead of the $26 - $30K + prices we are seeing Prius II’s go out for today. I know, I know. The lux additions and larger size make it worth the price for many but $16K + worth it? An EPA estimate of 55 - 60 + mpg on the highway would be a given using a slightly taller fifth gear in an Echo w/ the Prius’ Atkinsonized ICE imho. I am considering the Echo’s much lower weight and smaller frontal area even with the higher Cd. EPA City estimates of the Echo wouldn’t be near that of the Prius II but I bet you would see an actual EPA city estimate as well as reachable 40 mpg (the Echo already has a 35/43 city/hwy EPA estimate w/ the 108 HP - 1.5 L) vs. the almost unreachable EPA city estimate of 60 mpg of the Prius II? Wouldn’t that turn your head if 100,000 + atkinsonized and PZEV based Echo’s were sold vs. 50,000 + Prius II’s and they both received similar combined mileage? Which overall solution would be better for the environment? 50,000 Prius II PZEV’s at $26K + or 100,000 + Echo PZEV’s at $10 - $13K? The same with the Honda lineup. Why they didn’t simply drive up the final drive ratios of the EX/LX/DX in the Civic lineup for even more hwy mileage yet still maintain similar performance with lower costs in comparison to that of the Hybrid’s is beyond me?
___If we are going to lose performance to drive a Hybrid (this year anyway?), why not just take the performance away from a std. ICE propelled automobile and receive close to Hybrid type mileage but at a price much more affordable to the average citizen?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#7
06-08-2004, 05:47 AM
A thought or two:
The discussion seems to be on instantaneous efficiency, not long term. One appealing thing to me about the Prius is the integrated ideas of not even starting the ICE until already at high RPMs, the thermos to make sure it starts warm, planetary gear intead of transmission, etc. etc. Many of these things not only improve efficiency, but also decrease wear and tear on ICE, almost certainly more than the Echo proposed above, perhaps more than a Honda hybrid. The more I look at the Prius, the more I see a completely new vehicle system, well thought out and implemented.
Also, if you want to look at mpg alone, or mpg / vehicle weight, it would seem appropriate to include motorcycles, particulary one with an extra gas tank strapped on. The Insight is, by some measures, very efficient, but does so at expense of functionality and broader use. Another way the Prius appeals to me is that it raises technology to adapt to the desires of the user, not forcing people to sacrifics unnecessarilly. If I wanted to be real eco-friendly, I'd just go live in a tent and not own a car at all. OK, maybe a Segway recharged by solar power...
Hmm... that became more of a rant than I initially intended. Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I don't own any hybrid right now, but after initially being interested all three, I am currently planning on joining the long waiting listsd for a Prius.
Tau Zero
P.S. If we are arguing so much over the comparative advantages, then I'd put forth that the difference between them is much less than the difference from traditional cars. A winner either/any way.
The discussion seems to be on instantaneous efficiency, not long term. One appealing thing to me about the Prius is the integrated ideas of not even starting the ICE until already at high RPMs, the thermos to make sure it starts warm, planetary gear intead of transmission, etc. etc. Many of these things not only improve efficiency, but also decrease wear and tear on ICE, almost certainly more than the Echo proposed above, perhaps more than a Honda hybrid. The more I look at the Prius, the more I see a completely new vehicle system, well thought out and implemented.
Also, if you want to look at mpg alone, or mpg / vehicle weight, it would seem appropriate to include motorcycles, particulary one with an extra gas tank strapped on. The Insight is, by some measures, very efficient, but does so at expense of functionality and broader use. Another way the Prius appeals to me is that it raises technology to adapt to the desires of the user, not forcing people to sacrifics unnecessarilly. If I wanted to be real eco-friendly, I'd just go live in a tent and not own a car at all. OK, maybe a Segway recharged by solar power...
Hmm... that became more of a rant than I initially intended. Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I don't own any hybrid right now, but after initially being interested all three, I am currently planning on joining the long waiting listsd for a Prius.
Tau Zero
P.S. If we are arguing so much over the comparative advantages, then I'd put forth that the difference between them is much less than the difference from traditional cars. A winner either/any way.
#8
06-08-2004, 09:47 AM
Hi TauZero:
___In regards to the wear and tear, any IMA, HSD, or std. battery start is not good no matter what care was taken to decrease the friction involved in the process. Sure the Pack starts are great because of the 1,000 RPM before initiating combustion but remember there are tens of thousands of automobiles with well over 200,000 miles that have done just fine without an IMA/EV mode start and that number isn’t shrinking by any measure just yet.
___The reason I brought up the Echo as just one example is that 1. It is available 2. It is light enough to take the Prius II’s block without a mod for high fuel economy (the Prius and Echo 1.5 L blocks are the for all intents and purposes when looking at Bore and Stroke) and 3. It wouldn’t cost $26K +. More of the masses driving a PZEV of whatever make would reduce SMOG pollutants by a far greater margin then the number of Prius’ or Hybrid’s in general sold so far. The GHG issue is taken care of with an Echo based hyper miler receiving close to the combined mileage of the Prius.
___As for motorcycles, most don’t receive much above 50 - 60 mpg either. At least I remember my 1990 CBR 600F receiving 56 mpg until a drunk 14 year old took both the bike and myself out with one fell swoop. That mileage was received while I babied that small but fast rice rocket too. Strap an extra tank onto a 5 gallon, 60 mpg’er and you get a 500 - 600 mile range at best into the elements no less. Hybrids are already capable of 600 - 1,400 miles on a tank and do protect one from the elements and such. A motorcycle would look great in the mpg/pound comparison however.
___You most certainly do give up something to drive an Insight. It is a harsh riding, fast handling, high user feedback ride of at an order of magnitude above anything else available right now. When driving back and forth to work with one occupant, I have to carry around 1 empty seat instead of hauling around 3 empty ones The Corolla is the local 4-door family mover now.
___There is a market for everything but $26K + (as of late) so that you can be green? I can pick up a Ford Focus PZEV for ~ $11K although with a loss of at least 60 mpg on the highway compared to the Insight
The winner will be all of us if and when PZEV’s become widely available in most everything that we drive. That won’t happen with a Hybrid costing as much as they do today unfortunately.
Non-hybrid PZEV’s
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___In regards to the wear and tear, any IMA, HSD, or std. battery start is not good no matter what care was taken to decrease the friction involved in the process. Sure the Pack starts are great because of the 1,000 RPM before initiating combustion but remember there are tens of thousands of automobiles with well over 200,000 miles that have done just fine without an IMA/EV mode start and that number isn’t shrinking by any measure just yet.
___The reason I brought up the Echo as just one example is that 1. It is available 2. It is light enough to take the Prius II’s block without a mod for high fuel economy (the Prius and Echo 1.5 L blocks are the for all intents and purposes when looking at Bore and Stroke) and 3. It wouldn’t cost $26K +. More of the masses driving a PZEV of whatever make would reduce SMOG pollutants by a far greater margin then the number of Prius’ or Hybrid’s in general sold so far. The GHG issue is taken care of with an Echo based hyper miler receiving close to the combined mileage of the Prius.
___As for motorcycles, most don’t receive much above 50 - 60 mpg either. At least I remember my 1990 CBR 600F receiving 56 mpg until a drunk 14 year old took both the bike and myself out with one fell swoop. That mileage was received while I babied that small but fast rice rocket too. Strap an extra tank onto a 5 gallon, 60 mpg’er and you get a 500 - 600 mile range at best into the elements no less. Hybrids are already capable of 600 - 1,400 miles on a tank and do protect one from the elements and such. A motorcycle would look great in the mpg/pound comparison however.
___You most certainly do give up something to drive an Insight. It is a harsh riding, fast handling, high user feedback ride of at an order of magnitude above anything else available right now. When driving back and forth to work with one occupant, I have to carry around 1 empty seat instead of hauling around 3 empty ones
The Corolla is the local 4-door family mover now.___There is a market for everything but $26K + (as of late) so that you can be green? I can pick up a Ford Focus PZEV for ~ $11K although with a loss of at least 60 mpg on the highway compared to the Insight
The winner will be all of us if and when PZEV’s become widely available in most everything that we drive. That won’t happen with a Hybrid costing as much as they do today unfortunately.Non-hybrid PZEV’s
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#9
06-08-2004, 10:44 AM
Wayne,
I like your sound thinking. May I take this one step further?
What is best for the environment, 100 000 Echo's or taking away the need to commute to work by car for 100 000 people?
Maybe we should start a new thread here?
I like your sound thinking. May I take this one step further?
What is best for the environment, 100 000 Echo's or taking away the need to commute to work by car for 100 000 people?
Maybe we should start a new thread here?
#10
06-09-2004, 12:44 AM
Hi Johanerlandsson:
___Yes, Diesel Hybrid buses w/ particulate traps and NOx adsorber’s whether that is of the ammonia injection type or the new fangled HW only variants. Boy do I wish a bus or better yet, a train with hundreds and hundreds of passengers went to my place of work
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Yes, Diesel Hybrid buses w/ particulate traps and NOx adsorber’s whether that is of the ammonia injection type or the new fangled HW only variants. Boy do I wish a bus or better yet, a train with hundreds and hundreds of passengers went to my place of work
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
