okay, so I'm still learning the emissions game here...the Civic Hybrid is cleaner in 4 or 5 states than the Prius (1 or 2). In the other 45 or 46 states the Prius is cleaner. And by how much in either case? Is it pretty significant between the tier 2 and tier 3 bin thing? Why can't Honda just put out a clean car for ALL states? Wouldn't it cost more to manufacture 2 different versions of the same clean car? Why the differing standards for an otherwise green car? Too many questions, I know, but I'm trying to formulate some understanding of the emissions thing...thanks.

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.

Hi Finman:

___Close … The PZEV equipped HCH and non-hybrid I4 based Accord are cleaner in terms of smog emissions in all states over and above the Prius II. The non-PZEV equipped HCH, AH, non-hybrid I4 and V6 Accord, and Insight all have much higher smog related emissions then the Prius II in every state. Only specific HCH’s, specific non-hybrid I4 equipped Accord’s, and the Civic GX (natural gas powered) are available as PZEV’s in the Honda lineup.

___Significance is a matter of your own wishes and desires. If the Prius II was rated as an SULEV like the just released RXh is today, would the Prius II owners still own it? Probably in almost every case. Why did someone like myself travel almost 1,000 miles to pick up a PZEV Accord when the LEV-II based Accord was available at my local Honda dealership not 2 miles away? I think you now know of my own requirements

___When you are speaking of GHG’s (Greenhouse gases), it is pure mileage that makes or breaks an automobiles actual emissions. An automobile receiving 92 mpg for example has ½ the CO2 emissions per mile as one that receives 46 mpg. I am speaking of the exact Gasoline in both automobiles, not Diesel or NG. Both Smog and GHG related emissions are related to FE as well so those receiving > EPA estimates in their automobiles of whatever type are emitting less emissions of all types per miles driven. This is another reason to push the FE envelope …

___In terms of why, I do not know exactly. I know of the extra equipment added to the Accord to take it from a LEV-II to a PZEV and some of the equipment added to make the HCH a PZEV and it is not cheap. The PZEV of merit imho was the 03/04 Ford Focus 2.3 L. This was a PZEV equipped compact no matter where you purchased it just as the Prius II is today. There was no up charge and they sold hundreds of thousands throughout the country. You lost the much longer emissions warranty if it was not purchased in one of the 5 (now 6) clean states but you received the exact Ford Focus whether you purchased it in Chicago or in California … Most didn’t have a clue they were purchasing such a clean emitting car and Ford did little to advertise the fact. With that, today you can only pick up the 05 PZEV based Ford Focus in the clean states and only in the 2.0 L (2.0e) format

___Sorry to all for hijacking a very interesting thread indeed …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

I have to disagree with you on the first part - I was on a 60 minute trip in the back of a Prius II with two other people and was very cramped and uncomfortable for the entire ride. (we felt pushed up against each others' sides). on the other hand, three people in the back of my civic hybrid fit very nicely, with ample room on the sides to spare. perhaps leg room is more on the prius, but there are other factors to consider too before you subscribe to sheer numbers. sometimes actual data may beg to differ

however i totally agree with you on cargo room. i wish my civic hybrid's seats could fold down like the Prius' as this would make some of my transportation much easier. the large and tall cargo loading area of the Prius is also a big plus. This was one of my regrets in choosing a civic hybrid over a prius.

The only actual data available is sheer numbers, everthing else is subjective. While you felt cramped in the back of the Prius, others feel the same way in the Civic. Who's right? Both of you, of course! The person considering the car needs to check for themselves.

Okay, while we are being so honest here...I drove the Civic Hybrid alongside the Classic Prius a few years back and found the Civic hybrid more to my liking for purely subjective reasons (drove great, was decently sized, etc.) I didn't sit in the back seats in either car.

Waited for the 2004 Prius to come out and it won on even more subjective terms (design, hatchback, roomy, performance, felt right, etc.)

I am comparing a midsize Prius (my 2004) with the 'compact' Civic Hybrid and saying the Prius seems bigger, roomier than a friends regular Civic (which I've not ridden in, just a side by side parking lot comparison soon after my Prius purchase).

Again, pretty subjective, and my friends have said when the time is right, they would get a Prius for more room. They rode in my Prius, noting the larger interior.

I'm not a big person, and neither are my parents, but I don't see them comfortable in the back of a Civic, whereas they were completely amazed at the back seat roominess on a 800 mile round trip last spring in the new Prius.

PS Thanks for the emissions lesson xcel, I'm now a little more in the know! I assumed the MPG had some emission effects, meaning better MPG gets you lower emissions of certain chemical compounds, since less gas is consumed. Now to just convince people that that's important...

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.