Good point Robby - "able to drive at times using only the electric motor" puts the HCH-2 EXACTLY into the Full Hybrid category.

I wonder if the Marketing Types at Honda know this?

I say it is not full. Both Honda and Toyota's hybrids can use the engine and electric motors at the same time, or use the electric motors alone, but only Toyota's hybrids can run the engine to recharge the batteries while the electric motors alone power the car. That allows the engine to do minimal work and operate at its most efficient speed. Honda's hybrids can only recharge the batteries while the engine is driving the car.

Honda's gas engines appear to be superior to Toyota's so the two cars get similar mileage, but Toyota's hybrid system is better than Honda's.

The "betterness" of the HSD over the IMA can be discussed elsewhere and has been discussed to no conclusion here and other places.

But based on the aforementioned "able to drive the car at times with only the electric engine" criteria, the new HCH can do that, so if it's not "full hybrid" then I guess the definition of Full Hybrid is incorrect.

Is that what you are saying, CGameP?

You lose efficiency any time you have to convert mechanical energy into electrical and back again. As such, it's more efficient to use the engine's mechanical energy to power an input shaft rather than make electricity which is converted back to mechanical energy again. To suggest otherwise would be to imply that the Prius is a rolling perpetual motion machine.

Hi AZCivic:

___Except you have an ICE with 75 + HP that is doing 25 HP or less work of work most of the time. This is where a Serial hybrid knocks the hell out of a parallel 95% of the time. Lesser and much more fuel efficient ICE (I am not saying more thermally efficient) purely generating electric via generator with a 100 + HP MGSet and pack to drive her for higher performance bursts. Of course you lose the ability to power from both the pack and ICE for even higher performance but the design is simpler …

___Lars-ss, the Honda Insight before ECU update #1 could travel ~ ½ - ¾ mile on the pack when ran out of fuel. Does that make the Insight (Pre-ECU update #1) a full hybrid

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

Could you please elaborate on this, or point me to another thread with the info? How do IMA and HSD compare in each of these categories?

thanks

It's unlikely the distinction between "mild" and "full" is appreciated by many - maybe not at all outside the hybrid community. Just because of language, there's an implication that a "full" something is better than a "mild" something, but that's not the case with these cars. The categories only denote differences in the engineering approaches. I expect with all the different approaches that will be on the market in 5 years, this may become as difficult as categorizing the flavors of ICEs out there (4/6/8/10/12 cyls, V vs. inline, 2/3/4 valves, X.X litres, etc.) - hundreds of combinations easily. Just wait for the day Subaru puts out a hybrid. Then we'll need mild-AWD vs. full-2WD. Or, when someone uses 2-4 electric motors to drive each wheel (or pair of wheels). What will that be? Mild-AWD-4 motor vs. Full-2WD-2 motor?

As for the HCH-II, full hybrid.

*** Retired after 65,000 outstanding miles ***

I never said the definition was "incorrect", I just said I don't call the HCH II a full hybrid. In my mind it is not a full hybrid because it is a parallel hybrid, whereas the Toyota is a combination parallel and serial.

I like those designations better. It's more descriptive to say "parallel" and "serial" types of hybrid drivetrains, rather than bother with things like "all parallel hybrids are mild hybrids", etc. There is always an emotional connotation that people derive from loaded terms like "full" and "mild"; the latter invariably carries a sense of inferiority.

Also, it seems that, like the HSD vs. IMA debates that have raged in other threads, one's position on this subject depends on which type of car one currently owns. Maybe if I owned a Prius, I'd be all about the fact that HCH IIs aren't "full". The fact that (as CGameProgrammer illustrates) someone's take on "full" vs. "mild" seems to be largely subjective speaks to Tim's point that sooner or later, such simple terms will be irrelevant anyway.

A current story in Business Week demonstrates the impugning of the HCH -
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...6/b3959057.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...6/b3959200.htm
"It's quite a thrill to hit the accelerator and slip along in near silence. Not so for Honda hybrids. Because the gasoline engine is working most of the time -- getting an electrical boost during acceleration -- it drives much like a regular car. Honda says its technology is fuel efficient and cheaper, but that may not be enough to wow drivers."

I actually think that's a good thing. The less popular the better my chance of getting a new HCH for a good price.

2006 HCH Alabaster Silver w/Navi
2003 Honda Accord LX