Anybody know how to contact john1701a? - GreenHybrid

lakedude · #1 (**permalink**) 07-22-2005, 07:56 PM

For those who don't know john1701a is a Prius owner and lover who maintains an (mostly) excellent website at: http://john1701a.com

I've learned a lot from his site but he is getting on my nerves. He is all about HSD and the wonderful "full" hybrid system the Prius uses. I've got no problem with that, the Toyota is brilliant, no doubt about it. My problem with him is that he constently picks on IMA calling it an "assist only" system.

Check this out:

Quote:

7-02-2005 Defeat Auto-Stop. A post today about Accord-Hybrid was rather amusing. Someone asked if there was a way to defeat that feature, preventing the engine from shutting off when you stop. They claimed this is what the "ECON" button in Civic-Hybrid is for. That couldn't be further from the truth. "ECON" is short for "economy", which means pressing it will instruct the system to stop the engine as quickly as possible. In other words, the A/C will automatically be stopped to allow the engine to shut off to save gas... hence the economy. It is not to defeat, it is to encourage. But all that owner understood was that the on & off cycling of the engine in heavy commute traffic was really annoying. Too bad. He should have studied the difference between "assist" and "full" hybrids more carefully before making a purchase decision. After all, I clearly can't be blamed for not pointing out that shortcoming. I want all automakers to embrace the "full" design. So I'm doing the best I can to spread the word without (hopefully) upsetting existing owners.

and

Quote:

7-05-2005 Honda Improvements. Details on their upcoming new model Civic-Hybrid were released today. They reduced the weight of the engine, which decreased the cost and increased the efficiency. The motor muscle got increased by 50%, raising the power to 15kW. They also enabled an electric-only drive. I'm not sure what kind of gain that will actually translate to, but the limited amount of electricity available from the "assist" system (single-motor, share-the-same-shaft arrangement with the engine) simply cannot deliver as much as a "full" system (dual-motor, split-power-device configuration). So the expected benefit will likely come only from stop & slow conditions, no stealth like Prius. No mention of emissions improvement was made. It was interesting that nothing about the transmission was included either.

His site is full of these little digs at the Honda system.

Well Mr. know it all John my lifetime mileage with my whimpy little "assist" IMA Honda is currently at 60.5 mpgs and rising. Your "full" hybrid is at 48.9 mpg lifetime according to your website. Perhaps you (John) should have" studied the difference between "assist" and "full" hybrids more carefully before making a purchase decision".

Schwa · #2 (**permalink**) 07-22-2005, 08:52 PM

There's a big difference in the way the motor works in the full hybrid too, such as much lower emissions from never having to be 'stressed' when starting the car off. In the long run there may be some benefits as well, at least that's the theory, and so far the results are good.

I can see his bias towards the full hybrid system, but honestly I can understand it. There is something to be said about having a mostly electric car, with the gasoline engine assisting the electric motor over having a gasoline engine assisted by a small electric motor.

It's just someone's opinion, and point of view, I don't see why it should be so bothersome?

Delta Flyer · #3 (**permalink**) 07-22-2005, 09:04 PM

Fighting HSD vs. IMA is kind of like church members too busy fighting each other to get new converts.

As someone at another forum once said, each system has it's pros and cons. Ultimately, your power is still in that tank of gas. Honda seems to concentrate on an extremely efficient engine - Toyota with the recovery of kinetic energy. The HSD has the edge in the hills and urban driving - this comes from a Honda guy.

I'd like to rent a Prius next time Insight needs routine maintance. I don't pretend to know the HSD and won't pass judgement, but I love my Insight.

My critical remarks are reserved for Ford and esp. GM for being slow on hybrids and offering Employee Discounts on unappealing vehicles.

xcel · #4 (**permalink**) 07-23-2005, 12:21 AM

Hi Lakedude:

___I wouldn’t bother … If you read back through his logs, not only has he preached the HSD superiority vs. IMA diatribe forever, he has even preached his superiority over individuals (without naming names of course) tens if not hundreds of times. He never did like the fact that a particular Insight had almost twice the lmpg of his Prius II

___With the above, he does not drive his vehicle for high FE properly nor does he help others to achieve it with his own “how to” disasters. He loves showing screenshot pics of maximum regen yet knows liitle that doing so is about the quickest way to drive ones FE into the toilet. He reads our posts but it’s his car so he posts what he thinks is best instead of using the continuous learning process like the rest of us do … I don’t know what else I can add other then to look at his lmpg given his self proclaimed expertise on all things dealing with the Prius I and II

___I read his logs about once a month but have always clicked away with the same conclusions as in the past. If he would praise hybrids of all types and give credit to those that know how to push the envelope, his web site wouldn’t be half bad. Unfortunately, he doesn’t even recognize the FE accomplishments of other Prius II drivers let alone the same from any number of HCH and Insight drivers that I remember?

___Finally, he is a member here and will see this thread in short order. If he does not mention Krousdb’s Prius II accomplishments let alone yours and Rjbarlows in next month’s logs, you will know his true colors even better then before. I hope that in the future he steps down off the pulpit and recognizes what others with much more real world hybrid accomplishments have to offer rather then the one-sided “holier then thou” uploads from the past … His site looks more like a Toyota - HSD commercial instead of a site to educate the non-hybrid owning public about a hybrids overall benefits, let alone their pitfalls. Any hybrid that is … I went a bit overboard with some of my statements above but the HSD over IMA bias is so blatant as to make half of what he posts utter non-sense!

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

krousdb · #5 (**permalink**) 07-23-2005, 01:56 AM

Guys,
He is quite active at the Toyota-Prius forum on Yahoo. Here are his latest posts.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/86205
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/86208
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/86211

tbaleno · #6 (**permalink**) 07-23-2005, 06:21 AM

How can he say that the new civic is not a full hybrid. It will be able to go into electric mode under some circumstances. Just like the Prius does.

Both vehicles just pick a different range of speeds to go into EV mode.

As far as saying the Prius is more efficient because it has 2 motors and they are decoupled from the drive train, I would think that would actualy make it less efficient because power has to always be converted to electricity and then sent back to the motors and converted into mechanical energy. VS. IMA which will let you use mechanical energy directly from the engine.

We will have to see what comes of all this but I say with the current 1st gen IMA and the second gen HSD the HSD has a slight advantage but not a huge one. I think our friend John may be feeling buyers remorse soon enough because he doesn't look at the broad picture about what each system is good for.

Enough of my incoherant rant.

krousdb · #7 (**permalink**) 07-23-2005, 06:49 AM

Tom,
I try not to be biased as I recognize that both have thier benefits and weaknesses. I agree that HSD has the advantage right now, and possibly a bit more than you think. I would love to have an HCH at our marathon next month so that we could compare the FE between the two on the same course. Maybe one of the HCH hypermilers can come for a visit.

Our test course is optimized for HSD, not IMA so I would expect the Prius to do much better than an HCH. But I suspect that on a course with higher speeds, say a fairly constant 45MPH, the HCH would shine due to lean burn. I would love to try my Prius on an HCH optimized course. If we test both technologies on both the HSD and the IMA optimized course, then we might be able to quantify the benefits of each technology in a more meaningful way.

OK you HCH hypermilers, lets come up with a HCH marathon!

Civic Duty · #8 (**permalink**) 07-23-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbaleno

We will have to see what comes of all this but I say with the current 1st gen IMA and the second gen HSD the HSD has a slight advantage but not a huge one. I think our friend John may be feeling buyers remorse soon enough because he doesn't look at the broad picture about what each system is good for.

I think this is an important point. The Prius is an outstanding car, but the new IMA will make the HCH an equal. Then, being the "normal" car that it is, it will be more appealing to the general, non-early-adopter public. Forgive the cliche, but this is the wave of the future: standard, recognizable models having a hybrid option that, after generations of trial-and-error (not that 1st gen IMA is error), offer substantial gains in FE and emissions. The Prius, Latin for "something that precedes", is just that. An integral and vital part of the hybrid evolution. Soon, things like hybrid Camrys will be the norm.

That said, please understand that I'm not a Prius basher. I respect and appreciate the car, and readily acknowledge that it is cleaner and more efficient than my HCH. I don't see the Prius as some sort of competitor! I see it as a sibling, someone to look up to. And I'm certainly proud of her accomplishments.

Delta Flyer · #10 (**permalink**) 07-23-2005, 09:19 AM

Maybe that Prius II racing me on I25 on the way to Fort Collins was john1701a.

{just kidding!}

HSD vs. IMA
mild hybrid vs full hybrid

In a decade of two we are probably all going to talk about how obsolete our hybrids are. Even now, Toyota is coping with the unique problems of a hybrid pickup (ultra-low gear to avoid electric motor burnout?). Hybrids are not a mature technology.

What really matters most is:

How much farther your vehicle can go on a gallon of gas?
Does it meet your needs?
Does it save you money?
How clean is it?
How can we encourage more people to value these priorities (economy, ecology, conservation)?

This probably sums up all the discussions at Greenhybrid.