I can understand why a study like this has been done. I just don't agree with the results and here's why. Like any manufacturer or assembly line being built of course it would use energy to build it. Like any car designed and then created would use energy to accomplish it. Being in the early stages of this technology of course there is going to be arguments on both sides but what these people have to take into account when doing studies like this is in the end you have to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Let's take the last ten years for example. Let's use the Hummer and the Toyota Camry Hybrid in the example. Let's assume both started 10 years ago from the beginning including design, build, and assemble. Which car fair's better and given the last ten years let's compute the next 20 years. If the Hummer cost less in the beginning will it still cost less after 30 years (last ten and future 20) or will the Toyota hybrid kick it's butt? They are taking technology that has been developed since the first Ford and comparing it to technology developed in the last 10 years. Where will we be with this new technology in 20 years? If Toyota doesn't disclose the amount of recycled batteries coming back you can't really blame them. Are they responsible to make sure people return them to be recycled? They are doing what they can by having a # on every battery to call for recycling but they can't hunt you down to make sure you give it back so by coming out and giving figures for example of 50% being recycled the next story that will come out is from Exxon saying how bad the hybrids are for the environment because 50% of the batteries go to a land fill. I just bought a Toyota Camry Hybrid and love it. If they come out with one that get's 80mpg next year I'll buy that as well. The following year the same thing. I don't think the Hummer is getting anymore ecco friendly anytime soon!
To me, whether the report is based on proper evidence or not, and regardless of who paid for it, I believe that there are things that you can't put a price on - like a clean environment!
The fact is, Ford produced an Escape hybrid at a price which given it's greater fuel economy, tax credits, and long warranty, were well worth the risk that it might in some obscure way actually cost more than the non-hybrid. But none of that really meant squat to us any time a non-hybrid Escape owner asked us what our fuel economy was.
I can only assume that the report was paid for by people who'd rather not see hybrid technology flourish - private or otherwise.
ford didnt produce that hybrid, toyota did. Not that it really matters a great deal. However, the important part is that ford didnt invest in the tech the way toyota did.
i just hope the big three wake up and start investing more heavily in their own R&D so we have more options. And I hope Exxon doesn't buy out the patents if they do, like the last time they tried to accomplish better fuel economy.
ford didnt produce that hybrid, toyota did. Not that it really matters a great deal. However, the important part is that ford didnt invest in the tech the way toyota did.
i just hope the big three wake up and start investing more heavily in their own R&D so we have more options. And I hope Exxon doesn't buy out the patents if they do, like the last time they tried to accomplish better fuel economy.
Oh for crying out loud, that's the second time I've heard this on the boards this week. I was rather certain this bad myth had been slain already, I suppose next we'll hear about toxic batteries and that hybrids cause cancer, 2 other old arguements that hold just about the same amount of water.
Look, the fact is that Ford did not use Toyota technology, engineering, or assistance in their hybrid development, they did it all on their own. Believe me, I've met every Ford engineer who worked on the project, they did on their own, and they're very proud of their developments, let's stop the myth that's trying to give credit for their hard work to someone else.
It's in the FEH FAQ, there's a dozen sites on the internet that correct that outdated bad myth. Don't believe it. Don't perpetuate it.
Also, the CNW report is false, and discussed to death here on its many falsehoods, from who commissioned it and what they wanted, to outright falsehoods included in the report to support their conclusion.
and thats the important thing, keeping money from oil companies as much as possible.
EXXON is about to have the largest quarter for any company in the history of money. On the backs of the bruised.
and thank your pravus for correcting me. I have a habit of prematurely bashing the big 3. But i got that way because most of the time they deserve it, this time however Ford deserves some credit. now if we could get GM to stop dragging their feet and Chrysler to jump in, we would have a real situation to drive some solid technology.
. . .
Look, the fact is that Ford did not use Toyota technology, engineering, or assistance in their hybrid development, they did it all on their own. Believe me, I've met every Ford engineer who worked on the project, they did on their own, and they're very proud of their developments, let's stop the myth that's trying to give credit for their hard work to someone else.
. . .
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Something about the patent infringement suit against Toyota kept bothering me and you've provided the missing part:
Where is the Solomon Technologies suit or announcement of a licensing agreement with Ford?
My understanding is the FEH uses a simular PSD transaxle that Solomon is suing Toyota over. Yet there is no Solomon announcement of a licensing agreement or patent infringement suit.
The people who run CNW are tied very closely to big oil. Poke around their web site and try to find a bio of the president and CEO. Info on their background is almost impossible to find. Web search long enough, and you'll find at least one was formerly associated with "big oil". CNW is nothing more than an opinion-for-hire outfit funded, most likely, but oil companies.
Concerning the discussion of the Ford's hybrid, and whether Ford did it on its own, or got it from Toyota.
The following is copied from Wikipedia, and should put this discussion to rest:
Development
The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius, which led Ford to license a number of Toyota patents to avoid any legal disputes.
Both Ford and Toyota state that Ford received no Toyota technical assistance in developing the hybrid powertrain. Aisin AW, a Japanese automatic transmission manufacturer (belonging to the Toyota group), supplies the hybrid transaxle used in the Escape Hybrid. Sanyo of Japan builds the battery pack. The frequently stated story that Ford simply bought the Hybrid technology from Toyota may be left at each one's criteria.
Last edited by centrider; 11-21-2006 at 08:25 PM.
Reason: Clean-up
I hate you hybrid owners, your all to smug to do your research. You all think your noble by buying some expensive car that saves you 10 mpg when you could buy a kia for a 1/3rd the price and gets virtually the same overall mpg. If you really wanted to buy an suedo eviormentally car buy a disel. BUT IF YOU REALLY THINK YOUR AN EVIORNMENTALIST WHY ARE YOU DRIVING A CAR! real hippies ride bikes and walk to work and if they need to go far they take public transportation. smug bastards, you all make me sick!
Re: Bad News For Hybrid Buyers
