Thank you. This is what I've been trying to state myself. GM cannot change the laws of physics.

Hi Schwa:

___Exactly! There are some of the original EV-1 design team working on the BAS for GM supposedly? If you are an EV’er in an ICE world, you have two choices with let off of the accelerator. Regen or ICE-Off. Since it is a belt driven system, you are probably not going to run a high current - Regen mode from 65 miles per hour so what does that leave? A possible FAS! If you want huge FE numbers per the EPA or real world, you FAS from any speed and your numbers scream by any and all hybrids immediately no matter what the hybrid is capable of today! The Hybrid manufacturers have not figured this out yet but they will get there soon enough Add in a very slow speed EV, ICE-Off on any accelerator pedal let off, Regen below 20 miles per hour with any brake pedal application, and a small amount of assist with a hard accelerator pedal application (not light) and you have the makings of a FE monster the likes Toyota and Honda could only have imagined for thousands of $’s less.

___Possible issues … ICE off at speed may not be legal even though it is designed into today’s Insight’s and HCH’s (19 and below), and AH’s (12 miles per hour and below). What kind of start up torque is available with a BAS spinning at some high RPM during a high speed (> 60 miles per hour) FAS to spin up the ICE for restart again? I know a way around this as I do it every day but I am not sure about the design costs? How much torque can that smallish MGSet apply at 0 - very low RPM (1,500 RPM maybe) to that belt without tearing it to shreds? Can the BAS be isolated from the ICE and propel through the tranny directly? Spinning over the ICE in a fuel cut is Honda’s mistake with the 06 HCH-II. Only 4 that I can think of off-hand and I am sure there are a hundred others?

___Wolfman, there is no need to change the laws of physics as that is impossible. How do you think I can kill your Escape HEV’s FE in a simple P/U truck or non-hybrid sedan? Am I breaking the laws of physics or am I bending the rules with hybrid like behavior in a non-hybrid? There is only a need to apply hybrid like technology smartly and the FE will speak for itself. GM has a very inexpensive key with BAS just as every other manufacturer does. The question will be if the engineers are allowed to use that key to provide maximum FE that we are all used to or are they going to play games like they did with the Silverado non-hybrid - hybrid?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Lemme see here, you're bragging on keeping up with my FEH in fuel mileage. Keep in mind that my FEH is still brand new - about 1400 miles on it at current, and I'm already seeing 39 mpg on the MFD. I'm not about to say that I've found the maximum that this vehicle is capable of. Ford even states that break in occurs up through 3500 miles. By that time though, I expect cold weather to be taking it's toll, so I'll be waiting for next spring before I'll be comfortable in stating that I've peaked my mileage. By then, it'll have a trip to Colorado under it's belt as well - a trip that tends to help get green hardware good and broken in. The 2003 Prius I traded in was showing 55.5 mpg on the MFD when I handed over the keys - 7.5 mpg above the EPA combined rating, and I've seen as high as 58.

I'm not dogging the mileage on your Ranger - it's plenty respectable. Hoever, I think comparing a new vehicle to one that has some miles under it's belt really isn't a good comparison.

Wolfman,
I think you misunderstand what he is saying. He isn't trying to best you in FE. What he is saying is that it is possible to get better than EPA of some hybrids buy pulling out all the stops and making a regular vehicle act more like a hybrid.

He is saying that if a manufacturer can impliment some of these techniques that hypermilers use that aren't related directly to a hybrid system then the manufacturer can infact get a great deal of benefit.

These techniques along with a simple BAS do have the possiblity of getting equal mileage as some of the more sophisticated hybrid systems at a much lower cost.

My hydroponics experiment

You ever notice how hard it is to lip read cartoon characters?
"Crazy is what the sane call Delta Flyer"

Hi Wolfman:

___Let me give you a little background. The Ranger is at 37.4 after 20 + K miles with 80% of those tanks in 40 degree or lower temps on average? Probably 2000 miles of that 20 + K miles is pulling around a 5,000 # landscape trailer! You are running in 80 and 90 degree temps and have touched 38 once. Do you want to look at the Accord’s first tank (EPA combined of 29 mpg) in 32 degree temps by comparison? You can FAS a Ranger from 60 + miles per hour, you cannot the Escape HEV because Ford had some severe design constraints with the eCVT as it sits. The Escape is a kick *** SUV as it can beat the Ranger’s FE but not unless you pull out all the stops and I mean all of them! I am seriously considering a Gen-II Escape HEV after we remove the MDX from our fleet but only if Ford takes the eCVT design to its maximum as well. The FE Engineer at the Experience last week was not receptive to anything but Regen, Regen, Regen as his data shows that maximizes FE for the EV or assist afterwards … Those of us that push tanks to their absolute maximums in the real world without Ni-MH packs, regen capable MGSets, and 1,000 RPM starts from that MGSet no matter the non-hybrid vehicle know better

___When you get into the Laws of Physics stuff, I am at a complete loss as there is no breaking of any laws of physics to receive much higher FE then anyone can imagine today. Tom is right. If GM pulls out all the stops and designs the BAS to best the HSD, e-CVT, IMA, they can do it without nearly the expense of designing a more complex system in today’s automobile. IMA could be the best of all but Honda is too conservative with the design and too un-conservative with Ni-MH pack parameters. A much simplified BAS can do almost everything an eCVT, HSD, or IMA based hybrid can and in some cases more if designed to the limits discussed above. It is this if that I have all kinds of questions about as those engineers are on a steep learning curve and hopefully have picked up my strong objections to Regen over a FAS on every coast down other then when you actually do need to tap the brakes, SoC of the smallish Li-ION/Ni-MH pack is to low, Emissions need to be held, Coolant temps, AIT’s, etc … If they pull an ICE braking mode w/ Fuel Cut, that too is an utter waste of kinetic energy.

___What GM will do with BAS is anybodies guess and I have my doubts given GM’s past but there is the possibility that GM will do the right thing simply because financially they are in survival mode and need a killer and inexpensive Hybrid system to compete with just about everybody (Toyota, Honda, Ford) here in the states!

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

I've personally met a few GM engineers. They are sharp people with a lot of talent. GM has the brains to pull this one out.

But unfortunately;
one thing that one quickly learns when dealing with Detroit in general, and with GM in particular, is that those organizations are risk-averse to the extreme.
And doing something significantly different, like a hybrid, will always carry some risk.

The problem with GM has always been the people at the top, not those in the middle. There's no reason GM *couldn't* make a decent hybrid. I just seriously doubt that the CEO/Director types will allow the engineers the freedom and funding to make something comperable in efficency/quality to HSD or IMA.

If it was designed properly, BAS could probably do 25% more FE, but unless the system is properly integrated, it'll be more like a Silverado start/stop system that gets 10% more FE.

Wayne,

The vast majority of people cannot, or will not, drive the way you do. So unless you envision BAS in a completely transparent to the driver FAS, I cannot see it improving GM's FE credentials to any extent, rare exceptional MPG results from people like yourself notwithstanding. GM wil be the victim of it's own 'power' propaganda. I can see the reviews now: " I drove the x-BAS just like I drive my x-noBAS, and all I got was one MPG. BAH.

Heck, most Prius drivers get MPG in the **40's**, and that has to be the most transparent FAS-equivalent system on the road.

R2-E2, 2G Prius.
Highway/City/Husband/Wife MPG: 56.5, as of 12/2005, 26K miles

Jac Nasser, Ford President: "We are planning to launch a hybrid version of
this car [P2000] within this year [1998]. We will also make FCEV available in
2004."

Hi EricGo:

___I do not want people to drive like I do, I want the car to drive like I do and everybody will benefit! Think of an EV. When you let off the accelerator from 65 + miles per hour, you have 2 choices, Regen or free coast. There is no ICE-On/Off decision to mess up the equation. Engineers in the late 80’s/early 90’s chose heavy Regen just as many HEV’s do today. They do not have to however! Take a non-hybrid Camry I4 w/ Auto and let off from 60 miles per hour. Under many scenarios, that thing goes into an almost free ICE-ON coast that literally scares many older drivers who first experience it! ICE braking is a thing of the past because it is too wasteful other then when driving down a mountain and the same can be said with a hybrid under regen from higher speeds to maximize FE. Does ICE-Braking stop you from having an accident or do the brakes? Their is a fine line here of course and you know which way I lean but ICE-Braking is another reason why so many vehicles on the road today receive such poor FE. The Escape HEV goes into an almost free coast in D w/ ICE-On and you never hear those members complaining about a lack of ICE braking, do you? If Crude and refined gasoline was extremely plentiful and cost $1.37/gallon, nobody cares but now that it is $2.60 - $3.00 +, it is not just hurting those who cannot afford to fill up their 15 mpg P/U truck but it is devastating to our balance of trade Regen has its place and I would never like to see it disappear but an ICE-Off - Free Coast is the key to the kingdom! Ford has their eCVT setup right in the Escape HEV while in D except they forgot to run ICE-Off with a let off of the accelerator … except just above crawling speed. Ford has it right under L w/ ICE-Off except they wanted to grab a massive amount of Regen. Toyota has it right in the Prius except they forgot to forgo regen a bit above 40 miles per hour. A Prius shifted to Neutral can cure that issue (the ICE shuts down) but it has some issues with MGSet synch after shifting back into D from high speeds from my understanding Honda has it right w/ AS below 20 miles per hour in the HCH and Insight but they forgot to let AS happen from much higher speeds. GM has the opportunity to fix these oversights with a far simpler and far less expensive setup but like anything else, the powers that be have to really want a huge increase in FE or everyone involved is just wasting their time. The Silverado’s increase was a joke as we all know and if that is all the BAS will allow a VUE (23/29 to 26/31 or a 10 - 15% increase w/ the I4), it will not be purchased and GM will continue down their profitless path or even bankruptcy! Design BAS right and they have a winner. Design it wrong and they have an albatross.

___Just like those receiving low 40’s in their Prius II, mid 30’s in a Malibu/Impala/G6 w/ a properly designed BAS is far better then the 20 mpg or thereabouts most are receiving in them today.

___AshenGray, I hear you loud and clear and I can bet GM has not taken a simple BAS anywhere near its maximum potential. 25% in the city is easy. Out on the highway, that is a tough one. Remember the Prius II has a 32 mpg ICE but with ICE off and minor EV, she gets 60. BAS can perform those tricks as well. All but EV up to maybe a max of 5 - 10 miles per hour or so if GM decided to take it there?

___Fernando_g, I have the feeling GM will do exactly as you described by hiding under a rock … BAS will probably be nothing of significance and it will flop

___Where is a Mary Ann Wright or a Bill Ford at GM when you really need them?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

One big plus for GM's BAS is that the BAS replaces both the alternator and the starter so the mechanical end might be a wash for cost. Really the only extra cost will be batts.