"Bay Area Air Cleanest in 35 Years"

I wonder if that has ANYTHING to do with that county being the #1 county in Hybrid registrations in the USA? :lol:

See the entire story here:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...lth/9935795.htm

Hi Lars-ss:

___Unfortunately, it isn’t hybrids bringing this about. It is the ULEV/SULEV/PZEV program for the large number of non-hybrids that makes this possible …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

So hybrids have zero effect on helping clean the air Wayne?

Hi Lars-ss:

___Of course not. The item some might have missed is that there are probably 30 X’s as many SULEV and PZEV based non-Hybrids as Hybrids in California. PZEV’s have been around in non-hybrid format for possibly 1 to 3 years before the first Hybrid PZEV’s hit the showroom. The reason the air is cleaner in California is that many more ULEV’s through PZEV’s are on the road vs. TLEV’s and non-CARB compliant based automobiles from 10 + years ago.

___The following non-hybrids are all PZEV’s as sold in California IIRC …

2004 BMW 325Ci Coupe
2004 BMW 325i Sedan
2004 BMW 325i Sports Wagon
2004 Daimler Chrysler Sebring Sedan
2004 Dodge Stratus Sedan SXT
2004 Ford Focus LX
2004 Ford Focus SE Sedan
2004 Ford Focus SE Wagon
2004 Ford Focus ZTS Sedan
2004 Ford Focus ZTW Wagon
2004 Ford Focus ZX3
2004 Ford Focus ZX5
2004 Honda Accord EX Sedan
2004 Honda Accord LX Sedan
2004 Hyundai Elantra GLS 2.0L
2004 Mazda MAZDA3
2004 Mitsubishi Galant DE and ES 2.4L
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5, 2.5S or 2.5SL
2004 Nissan Sentra 1.8
2004 Nissan Sentra 1.8S
2004 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Sedan
2004 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Wagon
2004 Subaru Legacy L Sedan/35th Anniv. Ed.
2004 Subaru Legacy L Wagon/35th Anniv. Ed.
2004 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited Sedan
2004 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited Wagon
2004 Subaru Legacy Outback Wagon
2004 Toyota Camry LE, SE or XLE
2004 Volkswagen Jetta Sedan GL or GLS 2.0L
2004 Volvo 2.4 S60 Sedan
2004 Volvo 2.4 V70 Wagon

___Even here in Illinois, we could pick up Ford Focus Premium trimmed PZEV’s back in late 2002 when there wasn’t a PZEV based Hybrid available anywhere in the Midwest. Of course here in the Midwest, they (Hybrid and non-Hybrid alike) aren’t called PZEV’s given our high sulfur fuel.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Well my point was that the 10,000 to 20,000 hybrids on the road in the Bay area are CERTAINLY better for the air than the same number of non-Hybrids that could have been sold in their place...of that fact there is no debate. If for no other reason than AutoStop.

Hi Lars-ss:

___You have to be really careful with the facts in this discussion … As with all methods of fuel savings and lowered emissions, there are trade offs. The NOx spike from an Auto-stopped - IMA start can sometimes cause an increase in overall NOx emissions vs. just letting her run at idle depending on length of the stop and external temperature effects on the combustion process. Secondly, all Insight 5-speeds are LEV’s on high sulfur fuel and ULEV’s on low. The 04 Insight CVT’s are SULEV-II’s. The split between PZEV and ULEV based HCH’s probably favors ULEV’s across the country. With that, just about anything non-hybrid you might consider is available in a ULEV format or better as shown above.

___California’s air is becoming cleaner because of CARB’s initiatives making available hundreds of thousands to millions of cleaner ULEV or better emission rated non-hybrid cars, not twenty to thirty thousand LEV to PZEV rated hybrids. An example … My LEV rated Ranger XLT is as clean as my Insight over the same amount of miles driven if they both meet their respective EPA estimates. The Corolla (ULEV) and MDX (ULEV-II) are far cleaner if that helps explain how non-hybrids are doing more then the bulk of the cleanup because there are so many more of them and in some cases, they are as clean or cleaner (emission wise) then the Hybrid’s you and I drive on a daily basis.

___Another piece to the puzzle is a hybrid’s overall emissions from mining the ore to one hitting the road and back to its component elements after its useful life has past. Hybrid’s are behind on the emission front right off the lot because of the differing materials it takes to make one. Aluminum for one is much more energy intensive to create then steel yet hybrids have more of it then non-hybrid’s. You have to see the Toyota’s Prius II’s cradle to grave emission graphs to make some sense of it all but a Hybrid has an emission deficit to overcome before the first gallon of regular unleaded is burned in one.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Well, since the cars are not MADE in the Bay Area, the cradle to grave emissions are much less important for the air in the Bay area than is the "delivery to dealership to grave" emissions, right?

And as far as a "spike" after autostop, that's not an appropriate deficit to apply to Hybrids because ALL cars would emit exhaust at acceleration from a stop equally, not in equal amounts of course. But a non-Hybrid Civic or a Hybrid Civic accelerating from a stop are going to be pretty equal in emissions - it doesn't cost more fuel thus more emissions to start an HCH from a stop than it does a regular Civic.

Understandably, California is of course a leader in government attempts to clean the air, and has been for decades. But you cannot CREDIT one part of the program that is helping (the PZEV, SULEV initiatives) and then in the same breath DISCREDIT another helpful part of the program (Hybrids.)

So, yes, there is not a doubt that many of the non-Hybrids are doing a good job in helping clean the air. Yet to think that the Hybrids are not helpful in that effort is incorrect.

Hi Lars-ss:

http://autoalliance.org/archives/000110.html

___I don’t know how much more can be said. 20 – 30,000 (I am guessing at the number of Hybrid’s on California roads today?) Hybrid’s that are as dirty or dirtier then many of the new cars on California’s roads today do not have a significant impact on local air quality. It is the ULEV through PZEV program for all cars that are purchased in significant volumes that does. The Hybrid’s help but they are such a small percentage of the total as to be almost meaningless. In other words, promoting hybrids because of their emissions alone would be foolish given the std. I4 Accord or Camry purchaser in California is buying a car that is as clean as the Prius II and HCH PZEV in all but CO2 emissions. This California Accord/Camry I4 buyer has a cleaner emitting automobile then the Honda Insight in both CVT and manual format, the HCH in the non-clean fuel states, and the Prius I yet matches the Prius II and HCH-PZEV in overall emissions. How many 2003 and 04 California purchased Accord and Camry I4’s do you think are on California roads vs. Prius II and HCH-PZEV’s? This number does not include the rest of the list of non-hybrid PZEV’s Californian’s are purchasing by the boat load on a daily basis vs. the trickle of Prius II’s and HCH’s by comparison!

___A NOx spike from ignition after autostop is real and is inherent in just about any automobile (hybrid and non-hybrid alike). When a car is idling, there are no spikes from the ignition because it is already running. Acceleration from a stop will yield similar emissions from hybrid and non-hybrid alike that are rated similarly. A non-Hybrid will have a larger spike if it was auto-stopped at the light but they are not so this is not of a concern.

___I am not discrediting Hybrid’s as they are generally as green or greener then the cars you or I (non-Californian’s in particular) can purchase today. I am saying that there is such a low number of them on California roads in comparison to clean or cleaner non-hybrid’s that trying to correlate the drop in emissions because of hybrid’s is a huge stretch given the insignificance in comparison to the total population.

___Finally, the best thing California could do to drop SMOG related emissions is to give a $2,000 tax-credit for any PZEV purchased below a certain MSRP. This would push the automakers to run PZEV’s down the food chain to that those who can least afford a Hybrid or more expensive PZEV. This initiative could improve upon California’s air quality far faster then any number of projected Hybrid sales in California over possibly the next decade! Even today, you can pick up a Ford Focus ZX3 PZEV for ~ $10 - 11 K brand spanking new from many dealerships inside of California. By making PZEV’s that much more affordable, even the lowest income brackets might consider dumping their early or late model TLEV or worse polluters for a much cleaner/greener solution. Or at least make some pause before considering the soon to be released ULEV based Accord Hybrid. Although it too is a technological marvel given its VCM and overall performance, it is not nearly as clean an automobile as those purchasing std. Accord LX/EX I4’s from California automobile dealerships today.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Wayne,

Great points all around - you've been in this game a lot longer than I have. But it still remains that it is not reasonable to assume that ALL purchasers of California Hybrids are purchasing that vehicle in place of a lower emission car.

And remember - a good number of the cars in Cali are purchased in other states due to nomadic tendencies of the populace and are thus not Cali emission cars.

IF in fact ALL Hybrid owners could have purchased a lower emissions car, then I guess Hybrids are just polluting the air in an unreasonable fashion and should be outlawed !!!

Whether Hybrids are a significant enough number to make a difference is not really provable one way or another; can only be speculated.

I choose to speculate that they are helping, since when SOME of the usage of the car is during times when NO EMISSIONS are present, and when "NO OTHER NON-HYBRID CAR CAN SAY THAT" then it's obvious that the car is cleaner, greener, than a comparable car that emits ALL THE TIME it is running. ( I know, I know, if those two compared cars has the Hybrid as being a much dirtier car from the outset the comparison is null and void, but I am looking at comparing cars in the same general area as far as clean.)

So we both have good points, but it is still undeniable that Greener cars help keep the air clean in the presence of other factors, and Hybrids, IN GENERAL, are cleaner than MOST of the cars for sale out there.

Hi Lars-ss:

___You make excellent points but the fact remains that if the US or a given location (Bay Area) were promoting clean air to its fullest, they would attempt to maximize the replacement of these older/less clean automobiles with the maximum number of new/lower emission rated automobiles. Hybrids do not add up in this regard because the affordability as well as total sales by comparison to any number of non-hybrid PZEV’s one might consider if you do in fact live in California, New York, Vermont, Massachusetts, and/or Maine isn’t even close. Like I mentioned above, I have been able to purchase a PZEV equipped Ford Focus (there is actually no PZEV rating here in Illinois given our high sulfur fuel and the Illinois DMV doesn’t have the resources apparently to follow California’s lead?) from my local Ford dealer since late 2002 not including the 2005’s. The only other PZEV available to me today is the Prius II (the Prius II is not PZEV rated here in Illinois either). Do you know how many PZEV equipped Focus’ have been sold in Illinois vs. PZEV equipped Prius II’s? Probably a 40:1 ratio or more! So again, does one Prius II help clean the air as much as 40 PZEV equipped Ford Focus’? Those 40 PZEV equipped Focus’ replaced a previous less clean car vs. 1 less clean car replaced car by the Prius II if that helps explain the situation further.

___In regards to a Hybrid in autostop or EV mode(s) emissions, it still only receives ~ 40 - 45 mpg on average whether it is not running for 5 minutes of 10 hours or 10 minutes every hour. When it does run to take you from point A to point B, it emits HC, NOx, CO, PM, and CO2 at a given rate in g/mile. The PZEV rating of the non-Hybrid PZEV taking you from the same said Point A to the same Point B still emits a given amount of HC, NOx, CO, PM, and CO2 in g/mile if you achieve the EPA estimates in one. We don’t really want to go into the PZEV based Hybrid’s ability to achieve EPA estimates vs. a PZEV based non-Hybrid’s ability to do so, do we

___Once again, I am not saying a Hybrid is a less clean automobile replacement for most but there are other alternatives that are not only much more affordable but do in fact have a far greater effect on the local environment because of the numbers sold. If you were in charge of air quality in your locale, would maximizing the number of older car replacements with a large number of inexpensive PZEV’s make more sense or would replacing just a few older cars with much more expensive Hybrid’s be the right choice? The answer is quite clear. The average Hybrid owner makes over $100K/year and can afford a PZEV based HCH or Prius II. The average non-hybrid owning Joe who makes $40 - $45K/year will never be able to afford anything but a std. PZEV based Focus ZX3, Accord LX, Camry LE … whatever. At least up to this point in time.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net