I was recently involved in a discussion about the cost of fuel savings vs. the premium for getting a hybrid. With the amount of government subsidy going down, and the demand for hybrids going up, it certainly doesn't look like it's cost effective to pay $4000 extra to save >$2000 in fuel over 100,000 miles. Gas would have to go very high, as in >$5 a gallon to break even on the Hybrid technology with the premium for it now.

However, I was recently considering that the hybrid tech does have some fringe benefits besides fuel economy, here are four that I've thought of, I'd be interested in seeing if others have thought of more (this is for HCH):

1) Things like the lean burn engine, auto stop, and electric motor make for a much quieter ride than other cars. I just got an aftermarket stereo, and even at low volume it sounds great in part due to the lack of engine noise. Making phone calls is also nice due to the quiet ride.
2) The electric generator is great for maintaing speed down steady grades, like a magnetic engine brake. I suspect that this would save on wear and tear in general, especially for brakes.
3) Electric braking is also very handy in stop and go traffic, most of teh time I don't even need to use the break, just lift my foot from the gas and the electric brake kicks in, slowing me down. I'm sure this contributes to improved stopping power in general, as well.
4) Better MPG means better range. I can get from South Orange County, CA to Phoenix AZ on a single tank with a lot left over.

I'd be interesetd to see if people can think of others.

How did you arrive at the $2K savings over 100K miles ?
To me, this is *such* a ymmv calc, that I do not find it useful to generalize.

E.g., my family replaced a 25 mpg Subaru Outback with a 50 mpg Prius (the Prius is a bit better than 50 mpg in our hands, but to make the arithmetic easier..). So we save 2000 Gallons of gas over 100K miles. Put in your best guess for the price of gas -- I use a range of $2 - $3.5, and come up with $4K - $7K in savings.

If you start from a Honda Civic, and compare to any current hybrid, the savings will be considerably less, because the difference in mpg isn't as great. These calcs only make sense if you compare to the car you would buy if not a hybrid.

Regarding your comments:
The quiet ride of my Prius is *wonderful*. I imagine some conventional cars have enough padding and dampening to also give a quiet cabin, but I doubt you will find them in the $15 - 20K range.

You are exactly right regarding less brake replacements. This came up as a thread over at priuschat, and I remember one fellow who wrote he had to change pads at 120K miles *because they had cracked* -- there was still 50% remaining ! I am not familiar with the HCH, but in the case of the Prius, the starter, transmission, and (I think) all but one of the belts are gone, which may very likely mean less repairs later.

The improved mpg in stop&go driving is already factored in to the total ..

Range is mpg*tank size. The Prius usually goes about 500 - 550 miles on a tank, the HCH more due to it's larger tank.

Other advantages
--------------------

Less crud spewed into the air. Not a small thing.

Less reliance on foreign oil. Not a small thing. Unlike the suv driver with the ribbon sticker, you are *actually* doing something useful to bring US troops home safely.

An excellent hedge against massive jumps in gasoline prices.

The $1,800 was a rough estimate comparing the EPA estimates for mileage between the standard civic and the hybrid civic, which is the closest comparison I could think of for the difference the hybrid technology makes vs. not having the hybrid technology.

I am aware of the downshifting, and I do this when I drive other cars or in the hybrid down very sharp grades where the generator doesn't cut it. However, I've heard conflicting reports about downshifting, some say it's very prudent, others say that it's unnecessary wear and tear on the engine and drive train. An electric motor uses magnetism rather than friction to provide the resistance, which is was my main point. I agree about the battery being much more expensive than brakes, but the brake-saving is just a side effect of them, anyway. (the ~10mpg savings is the main effect)

Your ellaborate cruise control options are a good suggestion as well, especially being able to specify a range (ie as slow as 60 uphill, fast as 75 downhill)

LessEvilDave, I liked your post, a lot.

You may not, however, assume a holier than thou attitude with a ULEV vehicle. SULEV is the *minimum* accepted; and that only to avoid charges of elitism. P-ZEV is where it is at.

Dave, please allow me to comment on a couple of your points in post #4:

1. Noise- The HCH has more body panel sound deadening insulation VS. the conventional Civics, including injections in the pillars, etc. No need to turn up the radio or flatten the tires.
I haven't brought my db meter along but I'd bet my HCH is quieter than my wife's much larger/heavier Grand Caravan at freeway speeds. But it does sound like a good test to investigate

2-3 I don't have a downshifting comment as I drive the CVT.

4. Your 46MPG is commendable as many people in the Honda HX Coupe forums report around 40. I came to this conclusion with a Google search. My last couple of tanks have been over 60, the most recent one is over 62MPG.
You mentioned 50MPG on flat terrain but my figures are made on the edge of the Blue Ridge mountains. I also dream of a long, flat commute. I couldn't quite reach 750 miles on my last 12 gallon tank, but still had almost a gallon left. I'm sure you've noticed that there are many HCH drivers getting better FE than I am.

I'm not sure how you came to a $5-6K premium, as I paid over a comparable Civic EX was about $1K, if you tossed in some EX discounts. I've also recently read that some dealers are selling HCH under MSRP.

The last paragraph of your post you mentined drive by wire. What I'd like to see is a dual mode cruise control. Mode "A" would be constant speed, Mode "B" would be constant MPG.
Your comment of the "Silly pinball game lights in a hybrid" indicate that you're not aware that the FCD is a valuable tool for those who can use it.
You also mentioned some good future devices such as driver identification which could act as a "V" chip as such or set mirriors, seat positions, preferences etc for specific drivers but weren't you just complaining about an additional premium cost? You know the HCH comes with some nice items that you can't get with a regular Civic. Personally I'd like to see a hybrid with a lower trim level for those on a tighter budget. Some don't need power windows or additional sound dampening. Roll 'em up is fine, thank you.

Onto your post #7:
Google shows the conventional Civic starter costs 3-4 times more than your $50 figure:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/cata...=FR331-3231491
I couldn't find a price for the alternator but I assume it's about the same. Plus labor.

It seems like your fishing for complaints in Honda's IMA system - Fuses (And electronics) have been placed under the hood/on the engine for over 30 years. Now just because it's a hybrid makes it all risky?
I'd be interested in any official reference or findings of these IMA systems "Blowing", additionally because the radiator wasn't serviced yearly?

You mention the CVT being complicated. How many more moving parts are in a conventional AT? A couple hundred I've heard. The belt CVT is not new to Honda, and is very efficient and proven reliable. It's quite a bit more efficient than a regular AT with a wasteful torque converter.

I won't claim that solid state components never wear out but I'd bet that 95% of todays automobiles will never have an expensive electronic module failure. (ECU, Converter, etc)

Batteries:
Where did you get the 5 year battery failure figure?
About "Sticking it to the next guy" applies to all vehicles whether it may have an unapparent expensive repair need (transmission, engine, brake, etc).
A wise person will have any potential used car professionally inspected.
About hybrid batteries in a landfill- they are not a toxic substance as you've mentioned next to old oil, etc.

Both our cars are ULEV. Anyone who has followed my posts knows that I am far from an environmentalist. However smog tends to concentrate among busy intersections and I can't help but to think how much better it would be if all those other engines weren't just running at a light.

You could also shut down your engine but repeated restarts would put alot of wear on your flywheel gear (A very expensive repair requiring the transmission or engine being pulled), starter pinion wear, armature, brushes, solonoid, relays, fusable links and could blow your expensive ECU module, let alone an overly used ignition switch or tumbler. Imagine the repair bill just to save some gas dollars and cutting smog by shutting it down at the light like the hybrids do.

Well, I guess I'm kind of fishing on that last one but there seems to be alot of it in this thread.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

Dave, my comment was tongue in cheek. Apologies if it was not apparent.

HG, I guess I have not been reading this forum long enough; I did not pick up that car emissions is not something you pay attention to. I am very interested to know why, if you care to explain. I know you have a long commute. Was saving money the sole factor in choosing your HCH ?

-- Eric

Thanks Ericgo.
I really don't consider myself an environmentalist per say...but I am concerned about pollution. Especially in times when I'm in AutoStop and that F150 diesel pulls up next to me and the only thing separating me from a 3 inch exhaust pipe is a sheet of glass, right at eye level.
I'd love to reduce the level of auto-induced smog in the city, etc.

Perhaps my environmentalist definition is wrong but I'm against the more extreme views. For example laws that would mandate catalytic converters on lawnmowers, leaf blowers etc and have you put in prison if you remove it. I'm also against Kyoto as it appears to be a mechanism to punish America's progress while other major pollution contributors (China) enjoy a free pass while jabbing us.
Imagine being arrested by your local police chief to stand trial before a U.N. court judge only to have an expensive global warming fine imposed because someone saw & photographed your chainsaw blowing smoke as you cut down a house-threatening tree in your back yard?
Knowing the saw was constructed using prison or near-slave labor by a Chinese company that dumps untold amounts of waste in its rivers & blows unrestricted toxic fumes into the air...under blessing from Kyoto?

This won't likely happen with the good members here at Greenhybird but this is on the list of the more extreme environmentalist organizations. And they are many.

I hold an opposite view of (I think) most hybrid owners that man-induced global warming is an unproven science. I'm not saying it's false, just unproven. I've logged many hours watching the PBS global warming shows but it's entirely one sided and at times parades some very extreme views. I wonder if this has to alot to do with large PBS donations or political posturing?
Last year my family recieved an email threat from another member here regarding my views, and even very recently a shooting-spree personal death threat on a different hybrid car forum.
All because I expressed a different view than mainstream.

I wonder how many of those extremists actually drive a hybrid car and drive it for maximum FE or adopt a section of highway and keep it clean as yours truly? Would they really take the time to volunteer and discard several bags of trash from the side of the road with a poking stick? I can't count how many "green" or otherwise environmental bumper stickers I've seen stuck to smokey cars driven in a careless manner, mainly teenagers, college students and thier professors from the university?

You're right in that I bought my car to save money on my long commute. I noticed the Insight capability and believed the HCH could also do very well, given the same technology.
I also find technology in general fascinating from 1800's time keepers to steam engines to mechanical phonographs to vacume tube equipment all the way up to modern hybrid cars.
My 74 year old father, a retired NW Airlines master mechanic is amazed that I'm getting better than 60MPG in a 5 passenger car, and especially because it has an automatic transmission. My mom tells me that he brags to his friends about it and that, in part, makes it all worth it.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

Thanks, HG.

Environmentalism is not a one size fits all proposition, and I think a local, community focus like you have is a reasonable place to be. So from my standpoint, you do not deserve the label you have given yourself. How many people *want* to live on top of love canal, after all ? Or *want* lead back in paint and gas ? No one I know, and I am sure not you either.

Environmentalism as a political movement is probably what you shy away from, and that is OK with me. I steer clear of religion in much the same way, I imagine. I respect diversity and tolerance, but get uppity when it is a one-way street.

Regarding Climate change, I'm actually kind of surprised that it has become the divisive issue of the day. To me it is a question of science, and I look towards the world's best experts for information. How to respond is a political question, and a spectrum of opinions are to be expected. Do you think differently ?

Cheers -- Eric

at idle a diesel puts out 3 times less emmissions than a gasser FYO

Money is not evil. Good people do good things with money and bad people do bad things with money. Which will you be???

The ultimate Altima = 2.5L V6 twin turbo diesel(150hp/250tq) with 60 hp HEV and LARGE battery.


Great style & looks with power and great MPG