Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Kevin
I mean no disrespect in what I said however where I live there are lots of government agencies that have quite a few of them. I could look up specific sites for you but my position is generally supported by any search including the words demograhics and hybrid.
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by texashchman
Could you please tell us a link that shows how many Toyota, Honda and Ford hybrids have been sold to government agencies please? kevin
You could start with the "Model Comparision" group and read the "Fleet Performance" thread. There is also a Canadian government report cited in that thread. To that I would add the UT-Battelle report where they took a Prius apart and did interesting things to it with a dynometer.
King County in Washington State has gone hybrid for many of their vehicles. However, I've not seen any fleet data from them. Just their policy and specifications.
No, I don't think it is any 'consiracy' as much as governments asking reasonable questions about hybrid-electrics and their impact on operating and capital budgets.
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleverlever
Auto companies won't use a loss leader to enhance their image? Lets go back to 4 wheel steer Honda's. Talk about a waste but they got huge positive press for doing it and then it just faded away. The auto industry has never made squat selling small cars. Do you think Toyota is more interested in hybrids or taking over the sales of big pick up trucks?
We blame America for building big vehicles? In perspective who has made the biggest jump from small cars to big cars? Would have to be Toyota or Honda. Why do you think they are doing it? Because thats where the profit is. Why do you think they are selling hybrids in luxury vehicles? Because they can add on lots of extra's to recoup the losses from the expense of the hybrid technology.
Think I'm wrong? Why don't they sell Hybrid bare bones Echo's? Could it be because the hybrid portion of the vehicle isn't profitable for the MFGR just as it isn't cost effective for the consumer?
How many hybrids would be sold if you subtracted sales to government agencies and politicians who are trying to be politically correct?
I respect Hybrid owners for making a social statement about our wasteful energy useage but from an economic standpoint they aren't practical. Subsidy saves a lot more fuel if comperable funding is spent on mass transit
you had me up until the last paragraph or two...
hybrid echos aren't for sale because they'd have to be priced a few K$ higher to break even. even if hch's and prii are selling at breakeven, it's a benefit to TMC, for example, since it helps run their factories at higher utilization percentages, which, essentially, saves them money.
the comments about lexii hybrids adding one "amenities" and charging out the wazoo are spot on. same reason that the same feature in a 1969 caddy cost about 3-4 times as much as it did in the '69 chevvy. because buyers will pay for it.
now about mass transit, TMC may be operating at breakeven on the Prius, but there is no mass transit operation in the world that operates NEAR breakeven. they all operate at a loss. it also lets them move down the "experience learning curve", which means they learn more about how to make hybrids less expensively than do any competitors who wait before getting into production. there's a huge benefit to being first AND pricing to buy the early market.
talk about government subsidies and wasted money, if you want to, but don't point at GM and TMC first, please. try amtrak and every city rail system in the USA.
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Alan
You are one smart person. You are so right on about the true cost of mass transit. Its another one of the great myths that America needs to get honest about. In Minneapois we built a LRT for 750 million dollars ,and there are lots of additional cost they didn't talk about, and I never saw one word about decreased traffic flow when they put it in use. I saw lots of articles about all the extra problems it caused because cars had to yield to the LRT. A couple months later some new lanes were opened on a freeway and that took considerable time off the average commute. And then there was the bus strike. There wasn't one piece of credible evidence that there was any increased congestion, in fact there were several editorials saying car traffic was faster without all the busses in the way.
However there is one valid point. If we are going to dole out subsidy you can save a lot more fuel putting the subsidy in mass transit than you can get by putting subsidy in individual vehicles.
And then there is the impact all this subsidy has on the federal deficit. On second thought lets not get started on that because at the rate we are going the government will run out of money before we run out of fuel.
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleverlever
Kevin
I mean no disrespect in what I said however where I live there are lots of government agencies that have quite a few of them. I could look up specific sites for you but my position is generally supported by any search including the words demograhics and hybrid.
I didn't take it as disrespect. People talk figures but fail to back them up with data that's all. kevin
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Quote:
I respect Hybrid owners for making a social statement about our wasteful energy useage but from an economic standpoint they aren't practical. Subsidy saves a lot more fuel if comperable funding is spent on mass transit
This is true, either mass transit or in urban-sprawl type places, we'd see an improvement spending that money on increasing the capacity on the roads so that drivers wouldn't be stuck in stop-and-go gridlock getting near 0mpg, and instead could roll through at steady speed. Of couse, in the State of California, if they actually used all the money that's meant to be earmarked for roads ALONE on the roads (instead of raiding that money for other programs), flow of traffic, and as a result, average fuel economy would be far improved as it is. I'm sure there are many less productive ways the government could spend money than on subsidizing advanced technology to get going though, and It's not as if they're going to just stop collecting that money in taxes anytime soon...
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleverlever
Alan
You are one smart person. You are so right on about the true cost of mass transit. Its another one of the great myths that America needs to get honest about. In Minneapois we built a LRT for 750 million dollars ,and there are lots of additional cost they didn't talk about, and I never saw one word about decreased traffic flow when they put it in use. I saw lots of articles about all the extra problems it caused because cars had to yield to the LRT. A couple months later some new lanes were opened on a freeway and that took considerable time off the average commute. And then there was the bus strike. There wasn't one piece of credible evidence that there was any increased congestion, in fact there were several editorials saying car traffic was faster without all the busses in the way.
However there is one valid point. If we are going to dole out subsidy you can save a lot more fuel putting the subsidy in mass transit than you can get by putting subsidy in individual vehicles.
And then there is the impact all this subsidy has on the federal deficit. On second thought lets not get started on that because at the rate we are going the government will run out of money before we run out of fuel.
LOL, and right on, Cob...
i watched that crap play out in the Silicon Valley as Bay Area Rapid Transit tried to expand into areas that might have been worthwhile, like for commuters from San Jose to San Francisco. meanwhile, San Jose created a light rail system that never had much ridership, caused accidents with motor vehicles and clogged streets with their own "right of way" traffic signals!
but it's a religious issue and a feel-good issue, and the commuter-rail fundamentalists seem to have lots of "true believers", despite any financial "facts" that might exist...
now, to one of your last points.... "what if..." some of those subsidies went into widening and smoothing roads and improving traffic signal timing, instead.
i once proposed the idea to the San Jose Mercury News that some cold, hard cash be given to the computer departments at some local colleges and junior colleges and let the students do some term projects on improving traffic signal timing.
nope, that's what they have traffic engineers for, was the basic reply....
and you and i usually spend at least a few minutes a day of our precious life time, watching "phantom cars" go through intersections while we wait for the green.
but when my car's engine shuts off and the radio or cd's are playing my favorite songs, it's more bearable...
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Regarding my comment that the government is a major purchaser of hybrids - I am going to modify my position on this. I visited this site, hope I copy address correctly, http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_3_00/green.htm This site does state that government is major purchaser of hybrid related vehicles due to government mandates. However this is pretty old information. Counter point is that my statement is still applicable to the Midwest where I live because we are always a little behind the times and we are more focused on E85 which falls into another government subsidy scenario. Its kind of frustrating that I couldn't find any current data on ratios of public verses private purchases of hybrids.
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Hybrid cars are currently competing in the market, as all that are being built are rapidly sold. They are "aided" in some markets (tax incentives, London access, HOV lane access, etc.) but not in others. It might be interesting to see how they are selling in the "unaided" markets (including Australia, I think), but I do not have that information.
When I bought Prius in 2001, my tax situation was such that I received no incentive. Bought it primarily to reduce pollution. As it turns out, fuel and other cost savings have made it already equivalent (total costs per mile) than other compact sedans such as Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic that I might have purchased new instead. Over its expected 300k mile service life, I doubt that it has a better among compact sedans purchased new. It will probably never be cheaper to operate than a small sedan purchased used, but then there's the pollution issue again. Overall as pollution is important to me, it is a sensible choice.
If and when there are enough hybrid vehicles on the road to significantly reduce urban pollution and total fuel use/CO2 emissions, they could save governments money on emissions control programs and in other areas. Then all parties will benefit, except for vehicle manufacturers without hybrids. Those manufacturers may require "incentives" to survive in the market.
DAS
Last edited by Tochatihu; 03-02-2006 at 12:20 PM.
Reason: added final stinger
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
Re: Can Hybrid cars compete unaided in the market?
