You're right about the Echo. Mine practically fell apart 13 months into the payment cycle (at 61,000 miles). Blown CAT and transmisison.

a bit off topic:

From what I understand, Toyota, Ford, Honda and GM hybrid systems are all essentially parallel designs. Both the gasoline and electric systems are connected to the wheels, either directly through a normal transmission (Honda, GM) or with a special differential-split device (Toyota, Ford). The advantage of this is both systems can combine thier peak power. The electric motor primarily serves to supplement the engine torque at low RPMs.

Serial is when a much more powerful electric system alone drives the wheels (either with a transmission or with in-hub motors) while a small generator runs steadily at average output. A pack of batteries acts as a load-leveler. The main advantage would be a much less mechanical complexity (using in-hub motors you don't need transmissions, and differentials), and a simpler all-electric mode for commuting, with the engine allowing extended range.

As for the prospect of a diesel parallel-hybrid, the electric system wouldn't be as much of a benefit because the diesels already have such good low end torque, they don't have as much of a need for the supplemental electric torque. They also have inherently less engine braking than gasoline engines, so they'd receive less FE-savings by downsizing the engine.

Diesel would make sense for a series-hybrid design though, as diesel generators tend to be very efficient.

This is not entirely accurate. Yes there are two stroke diesel engines out there. These however, are large industrial engines, and used to be used in medium and heavy duty bus and truck engines. The two stroke diesel for on highway use has long since been phased out in new commercial vehicle assembly, and has never been in service in the diesel light duty passenger car and truck markets. These engines are four stroke engines, just like a gasser.

DizZy diesel at the plate ..
GassBrid winds up, throws ..

Oh oh. DizZy had a coughing fit, and the ball blew by. Strike ONE

GassBrid winds up, throws ..
DizZy is dabbing his bloodshot eyes. Can't see a thing. Strike TWO

OK, now DizZy is serious. Watch out, this guy has a monster swing
GassBrid winds up, throws ..
DizZy takes a bead, bats coming around, AND HE TWISTS AN ANKLE !!
Rotten, rotten luck. One darned injury after another.

Maybe next year ?

R2-E2, 2G Prius.
Highway/City/Husband/Wife MPG: 56.5, as of 12/2005, 26K miles

Jac Nasser, Ford President: "We are planning to launch a hybrid version of
this car [P2000] within this year [1998]. We will also make FCEV available in
2004."

In terms of "real-world" mpgs, I can think of one example where diesels can be compared to hybrids.

Various drivers here in the UK drive vehicles from one end of the country to the other (Lands End to John O'Groats), 900 miles, carefully but realistically (ie keeping up with the traffic on everyday roads) to see how good the fuel economy of various vehicles really can be.

Channel-4 drove a Prius on this route and managed 68.3 mpg for the whole trip.

But, another attempt was made in an Astra ECO4 which is a family car of a similar size and weight to the Prius, but is a diesel, much cheaper and managed 90.6 mpg at a much higher average speed.

You just can't argue with outright thermal efficiency.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

Any diesel discussion realistically is just a VW TDI discussion, and I do want to add one advantage they have over the hybrids -- huge fuel tanks. From what I've read on tdiclub.com, it's really easy to go 600 miles per tank and a couple of people managed over 1000 miles per tank, though they used some fuel additives.

Of course, if you want another reason to go with Honda or Toyota instead of Volkswagen (for any car), look at the forums on TDIClub.com full of questions about things breaking.

Maybe in the States, but over here we have a whole range of diesels from Fiat, Peugeot / Citroen, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota and Honda. All very good vehicles and several much more advanced / clean / refined / economical than the current clattery VW TDi diesels.

Take a look at BMWs recent 320 diesel. It's quieter than the 2-litre gasoline version, quicker, more powerful, 0-60 in 8.6 seconds, hits 137 miles per hour and can still manage 61 mpg (UK, 51 mpg US) on the extra-urban cycle. VW are some way behind in several respects.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

Huge fuel tanks add extra weight, sure you might not have to stop as often but more weigh can lessen mpg. I'm happy with the mpg of my HCH I. I checked out a TDI before buying my HCH and for the money the fit and finish to ME wasn't as good as the HCH. I have to also say the VW dealer wasn't the most friendly either, it seemed to me they were doing me a favor by being in business. By the way about 6 months after I bought my HCH the VW dealer called me and asked if I was interested as they had several TDIs in stock to sell, NOW he was real friendly!Kevin

2004 silverblue 5 sp.

I have to say, I own a Diesel not a hybrid. I looked at both cars and decided that a Diesel was a better choice. Both are far better than regular gas cars but here are a few things to consider.


Diesel: A far more efficient power source. Less efficient design.
PRO
Diesel engine is good for million plus miles easy, no batteies to worry bout.
Bigger Diesels get better than Bigger Hybrids. HAH - 30s; Jetta TDI 40s
Better mileage with loads, trailers, bikes on roof, 600lbs of passengers.
Can run off Vegtable Oil, with vastly better emmisions, no net CO2 to Atm.
Can run off BioDiesel, with vastly better emmisons, no net CO2 to Atm.
Can run off many other fuels with very few modifications. LPG, Natural Gas...
Can tow/carry more, without near the performance detriments of Hybrids.
Typically BETTER than sticker MPG, for average drivers.
No Ozone production from gas fumes.
No reliance on efficent driving, so bad driving = slight PE loss.
Drive it off the lot TODAY.
CON
On regular Diesel much more polluting, NOx, and Particles only!
Loud, even the really quiet ones are really loud compared to hybrids.
Cost and availability of fuel.
No cool status that Hybrids get.
Decreased FE at low temps (about the same as a Hybrid)
Diesel fuel is really messy (does not evaporate like gas).

Hybrid: Far more efficient design. Less efficient power source.
PRO
Smaller Hybrids get better than Smaller Diesels. HI 60s VW Bettle 40s.
Easier to convert to fuel cells or other electrical storage medium.
Mostly far superior emmisions.
Cost and availability of Gas.
Super cool green hippy status comes with the car.
Much quieter, with the cool engine off ability. I want it so bad!
Clean ... er fuel. Evaporates from pump handles, gas cap.
Tax breaks.
HOV consideration. Not in the ATL though.
CON
Gas fuel that evaporates turns to ozone.
Can't/VERY limited towing abilities.
Relies on efficient driving, so improper driving = large FE loss.
Thus typically WORSE MPG than sticker for the average driver.
Have to wait months after you buy to TEST DRIVE your car off the lot.
Slightly reduced storage capacity.
Those batteries, how to recycle them, and the cost to replace them.
More that 1 (I know MB, and Jeep, whatever... and trucks dont count) Make.

So in general if you are going to drive a big car (= inefficient) or inefficiently (=fast, with bikes on the roof, or towing things) buy a Diesel. If you want a small car and drive efficiently get a hybrid.

I drive with bikes on the roof ofter (more than once a week) and generally drive at or above 80MPH. So I chose a Diesel, and am very happy with it. As soon as my free maintenance ends, I can run it off Vegtable Oil. Dont want those VW techs to void my warrenty when they see the new fuel line. Plus I could not find a single Insight, or Prius to even look at, much less drive. And Priui don't come in MT, and that was a requirement. I hate Civics for some unknown to me reason so they were out, and Sorry but SUV hybrids are no better than a regular compact car! And the Accord was to costly, and gets worse mileage than I get with the Diesel.

Clett is right of course;a hybrid has no advantage over a regular ICE with a lock up trans in pure hy driving.In fact it is heavier-always a disadvantage in respect to mpg.
The Diesel does have a huge hy advantage-20/1 vs 10/1 compression means it extracts probably 20% more heat energy from the same amt of fuel;no throttle plate in the intake stream-decreases pumping losses;and it can burn super lean mixtures with a huge excess of O2-so it has much lower CC temps.A TDI should be able to get you 25% farther on the same amount of fuel in hy driving.
I like Diesels, but we really don't have the really"good' ones here yet.I don't know if the low sulphur diesel is still on for 2007-President Bush made some post Katrina change in that reg,I thought.
Clett-do you have a weight on that ASTRA ECO4?Who makes it?Cost of something we have here-usa-so I can get an idea of the relative cost-say a plain jane Accord 4cyl-or a Corolla-or maybe a VW of some kind?I think you folks pay more for the same cars(not sure why).Thanks.Charlie