Hi

I live in the foothills outside of Denver and commute into town daily (a gain/loss of approx 3000 ft). I currently own a 4wd SUV for snow/ice driving and a regular car for good weather. My son is turning 16 so I'm faced with obtaining a second 4wd vehicle (just trust me when I say that I cannot make it up my drive in 2wd when there is snow/ice on the ground). I'm seriously considering a Hybrid SUV to replace my current car... this will give me just one vehicle that I can drive every day and reportedly comparable gas mileage. My question is... I have heard rumors that the Hybrids may not perform as well in cold weather (temps at or below 0) and also that their heaters won't work as well for my morning commute since most of it is downhill and presumably the engine wouldn't be running as much.

Any truth to these rumors?

Thanks!

Shiloh,

Those of us who know the facts about hybrids cringe when we hear misinformation spread as fact. Hearing misinformation spread as "rumor" is just as bad! Yes, hybrids perform worse in cold temperatures, but that's just half the story. All cars perform worse in cold temperatures (as far as fuel economy goes). Hybrids are no exception. People have some expectation that only hybrid cars are analyzed, while all others get a free ride. No matter what vehicle you're looking at, perhaps you won't match the average mileage for the model. It's not a question of hybrid or non-hybrid.

I would agree that the hybrid system may not fully activate until the car warms up. But, you'll still most certainly receive better mileage than for the non-hybrid equivalent.

[edit] The part about your heater is 100% false. Heat will never be cut.

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Are there any 4wd hybrids? The FEH is 2wd right?

My hydroponics experiment

You ever notice how hard it is to lip read cartoon characters?
"Crazy is what the sane call Delta Flyer"

The FEH comes in either 2wd or 4wd. The Toyota Highlander Hybrid will also have both options. What will be available in my area, costs are other things I need to consider but I thought I'd start with the potential show-stoppers

The RX 400h is 4WD as well, I believe.

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What Jason said is exactly correct. If it is cold and snowy you will not get the EPA figures in any car. Hybrid features like auto stop are not going to work until the car is warmed up and some models auto stop will not work at all below a certain temp. Auto stop is only a small fraction of the total number tricks a hybrid uses to get good mileage. The only hybrid feature that would hurt the heating ability is auto stop and auto stop is not gonna be working while the car is cold.

The primary way a hybrid saves gas is by using the electric motor to help the car on take off and also when going up hill. The energy for this extra boost of power comes from when the car is stopping or going downhill. In such cases the motor functions as a generator and puts charge into the batterys for later use.

The big question for you is if the battery will last long enough to climb such a serious hill. If a hill is too long and steep the battery will not be able to help for long enough. I'd ask people making a similar commute that already own hybrids how well they work for job.

My area is hilly but no hill is too much for the my Civic Hybrid on my regular commute. There is a hill in the area that is so steep for so long that it killed the pack but I've only been over that hill one time so I can't really help with this issue. The one time I did go over the big hill I had the cruise set to 70mph in 5th gear. After the battery ran dead I had quite a struggle getting over the hill and ended up only going about 45mph in 4th gear. Had I downshifted sooner the results might have been better but I can't say cause I've only done it the one time. The car took all the other hills on the entire trip in 5th gear and it didn't slow down under 70 miles per hour.

Your hill seems to be big enough to cause a hybrid system some trouble so please check with the locals to see how they do it. While you are at it ask em if they like their hybrid.

Regarding hills: I have gone over some significant hills (e.g. from 0 to 4200 feet in 10 minutes) in my HCH CVT without experiencing any real difficulty. The IMA (electric motor) helped out for a while, but then was eventually used up. When it did, the engine did just fine, and I maintained a speed of 65 miles per hour in cruise control the entire way, passing many other autos (this was going over the grapevine in southern California), without making the engine work too hard.

I guess I point this out just to say that I have not personally experienced hill issues. I also know that I have read elsewhere that the FEH has fared well over hills, but I read that a while ago.

You might post your question in the FEH and Highlander groups (if you haven't done this already). And the advice to ask some locals full of wisdom as well.

Hi Shiloh:

___I will add some more commentary to the thread tomorrow as I have to get to bed but I have never had a tank from any vehicle (hybrid or non-hybrid) in the last 3 years not give me > then EPA highway estimates no matter the time of year, the temperature, or conditions. Below freezing temps have knocked me back towards EPA highway estimates but not below them so far … Having just said that, I will have to whistle past every graveyard, knock on every bit of wood I come across, and cross my fingers until they are blue to maintain this through the upcoming 05/06 winter season

___The following pic might be of some encouragement to you given this was in our 03 Acura MDX (4WD SUV) over an ~ 40 mile distance to the United Center to see the Harlem Globetrotters during one of Chicago’s largest blizzards of the 04/05 Winter season. The MDX is only rated at 17/23 City/Hwy. Sorry for it being blurry as it was taken by my youngest son just as we were exiting the Kennedy from the back seat …

Time: 7:08
Range: 321 miles
Avg. (= FE): 31.2 mpg
Outside Temperature: 21 degrees F




___With the above, the 4WD Escape HEV, the upcoming HH, and the just released RXh will climb whatever slope you can throw at them while providing as much heat as you can stand, and you will still receive better FE from them then you would from their respective sibling SUV’s because of the Atkinson intake designs on all 3 let alone the hybrid gear working as expected or not during the coldest weather months before being fully warmed up or not.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Hi Shiloh,

Is it really a *3000* ft climb ? That would put your house at about 80000 ft above sea-level ..

I live in the foothills of mile-high Albuquerque, about 400 ft above the city, so we may have similar topography. My only winter experience with our Priius II was 2004 - 2005, which was pretty mild. The Ford hybrid, and of course the toyota suv hybrids have similar drivetrains, and I would guess would have given similar experiences:

Heat: is better than our Subaru Impreza Outback, because there is no reliance on engiine heat, coming instead from the battery. So the car heats up immediately. This does mean that the ICE will be on more in the beginning of your drive, even if you are going downhill, but not a problem. You may be interested in www.john1701a.com, a wonderful website from a fellow from MN. Serious winter driving.

Long Climbs: As has been mentioned, the worse scenario is that all the battery has been used up, and the car essentially reverts to a simple ICE drivetrain. I have never seen that happen, even going up the **5000** ft Sandia Mountain in my backyard.

All told, performance is in all likelihhood a non-issue. You may not see EPA mpg, but I'd expect your mileage to be markedly better than a conventional suv, and emissions are SULEV. Colorado has one of the nations most generous state credits for hybrid purchases -- somewhere around $3K. I'm kind of surprised anything else sells there.

Yes, it's really a 3,000 ft climb, I live at just about 8,500 ft (not 80000 - you added a zero in your post) and it's well known that Denver is the "mile high" city at 5280 (at city hall). That said, it takes about 1/2 hr to climb that distance so it's not a straight uphill, just your typical mountain driving - some steep sections, some relatively flat areas etc.

Thanks for all the input. I'm now ready to start looking at what may or may not be available in the area. I'll admit that I was first drawn to the technology based on reports of the Highlander Hybrid. The longer than anticipated wait for them to be available has been a bit disconcerting but I really didn't NEED to purchase a second 4wd vehicle before now. I have found a local dealer that lists a couple of FEH 4wd vechicles currently in stock (per their website) and I'll definitely check them out but I also am contacting local Toyota dealers to see what inventory they expect etc. I am not inclined to peorder something that I haven't seen, touched, and taken a test drive in. I haven't really considered the RX 400h as I just assumed the Lexus brand would be more expensive but I may check it out as well.