What irks me is the argument about "payback" and auto technology and if the time frame isn't immediate that somehow it's not worth it.

The argument "sucks". The media, etc. is fosters the mentality that if it doesn't solve all problems today, then don't bother -- when it comes to cars and anything else that is environmentally friendly. Is there a payback for PDAs? Is there a payback for flat screen tvs? Is there a payback for the latest fashion in shoes? Is there a payback for the latest in hiking gear?

The only items that are ever analyzed for "payback" are items that are enviromentally friendly or fees charged by brokers and mutal funds.

Seriously....read a story about flourescent bulbs and invevitably it will talk about "payback".

I also detest people who tell me how the Prius is this or that because then don't believe it can get 60mpg or only averages about 48 to 55 (depending on the articles they've read) and consequently that's why the went ahead and purchased a new SUV since the hybrids don't pass some magical number of mpg (or heaven forbid -- they still use gasonline!).

Anway, that's my rant on the mentality of the majority of Americans. <_<

due to sulfur content in #2 diesel cats are almost usless thus the high outputs in some of the emissions.

Diesels have a very low HC output and without HC you can't have smog.

Also when a diesel isn't floored it puts out very little emissions.

last two tanks 630 miles on 15.05 gallons & 592 miles on 14.5 gallons all city driving

as far as HWY I drove 720 miles to birmingham al. and had barely gone into reserve but not sure gallons used. on way back form there filled up in Memphis tenn. and filled up at 476 miles @9.6 gallons

its a 2002 jetta 5sp in 4-6 months I will be switching to Biodiesel and be Mr. Green

Hi Iboomalot:

___NOx is a precursor to SMOG as well. Your Jetta no matter the ability to burn Bio-Diesel is still a large emitter compared to most. I can dig up some specs for you if you would like but I am sure you already know how bad it is

___Now on to the DB. When you fill, make note of the distance traveled and gallons pumped. You can recall the rest as you upload your tank data. The RHMDB makes the whole process rather simple as it should. Once uploaded, comparison between your own diesel and hybrids as well as non-hybrid SI-ICE based automobiles are at your fingertips.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

definately NOx and diesels produce something like four times the amount a normal car does.. and then there's the hybrid which produces even less NOx (prius 90% less than average new car)

A Prius a day keeps the doctor away!

Thats why the Diesel is rated so low via EPA emissions testing due to NOx levels.

but green house gasses my diesel is 4.70 vs 4.10 in output. Granted the hybrid is slightly lower but the diesel isn't so bad. Also Gassers emit other harmfull gasses not included in the EPA testing. During fill up gassers emit harmfull gasses or in hot temps when the tank off gasses pressure build up.


CDC diesels reduce NOx to very low levels but you need HCs to mix with NOx to form smog. Also on the PM side of things gassers after 70-80K miles will emmit more PMs than Diesel.

doesn't matter anyways power plants emit more pollutants than we do and mother nature via natural events like a volcano pollutes more than all of mankind.

Atleast once on biodiesel I won't be buying any overseas oil

just brainstorming sorry for the bouncing around alot.
-----------------------------

can I post my mileage???? I thought this was a hybrid only thing???

Hi Iboomalot:

______________LEV-2 ** ULEV-2 ** SULEV-2

CO (50K/120K): 3.4/4.2 ** 1.7/2.1 ** Unmeasurable/1.0

NOx (50K/120K): 0.05/0.07 ** 0.05/0.07 ** Unmeasurable/0.02

PM (50K/120K): Unmeasurable/.01 ** Unmeasurable/.01 ** Unmeasurable/.01

HC (50K/120K): 0.015/0.018 ** .008/.011 ** Unmeasurable/.004

___A typical diesel available today even when brand new has far higher NOx and PM output then a 120K SI-ICE of ULEV-II or SULEV-II spec. Add the SULEV-II rated PZEV’s to the mix and you are really pumping out the garbage and this includes CO and HC, the TDI’s supposed saving grace. Even the latest CDC CI-ICE announced the other day that you brought up cannot meet Tier II-Bin5 emission standards (LEV-2 at 120K miles) at the 50 or 120K levels across the board unfortunately.

___As for adding tank data, I wish more diesel pilots would add their own in fact.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

a diesel is a cleaner burning engine than the gassers main reason for the horrible emissions is due to the sulfur in the current fuel and thus CATS that would lower those ouputs are not used.

Gassers have extensive emission controls that diesels don't. Once low sulfur or biofuels are being widely used NOx cats + PM traps can be used and get a diesel's output well below gassers standards.

just keep in mind heavy PM output (diesel) is less harmfull than lighter PM output(gasser) Iam reffering to weight and size of the particles.

current USA EPA standards favor the gassers emission outputs thus HCs and COs aren't regulated as heavy as NOx and PM IMO.

I would like to see in a yr or two a hybrid diesel setup and run off Biodiesel would rock.

I think Fuel Cell is a dead expensive issue that will never happen and diesel hybrids will be the new green machine with power to spare.

Its amazing to me to watch a city bus take off from a stop light and emit no smoke. OKC recently switched to biodiesel for its city busses. Diesel can be clean just more steps need to be taken.

Hi Iboomalot:

___This is not about a diesel emitting smoke that you can see, it is about emissions you can’t. IIRC, the CDC runs LSD and isn’t meeting Tier II/Bin5 (LEV-2 @ 120K). I trust Ford’s Urea injection w/ SCR and DPF’s but the EPA is balking at the less then 120,000 miles without consumer intervention. When the CDC technology demonstrator dropped NOx levels by an order of magnitude, HC’s came up by the same X 2. Even with an expensive after treatment and LSD/Bio, the diesel still is not reaching Tier-II/Bin 5 (city cycle failure) let alone how much cleaner a ULEV-2 or SULEV-2 is today right off the lot. Have you looked at the PZEV ratings? You can go to any Honda dealer in California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, or Vermont and pick up a PZEV based Accord that will clean the clock of any automobile in terms of emissions (Tier II/Bin 2). By comparison, a diesel with an additional $3,000 worth of emissions HW fixes will only become as clean as a Toyota Echo which is pretty dirty by comparison to much of what we have available to us … Place a hypermiler behind the wheel of the two (the PZEV based Accord LX/EX and a heavily emissions modded and even more expensive Jetta TDI) and you might have a year round 44 lmpg vs. 56 lmpg (Accord vs. Jetta). Care to do that math on that in real $’s? Bio is a renewable fuel and one that has more going for it then just lowered CO/CO2 as lowering imported crude is a good example but it is not a free substitute given the emissions by comparison to what we have available to us in any other number of automobiles.

___Where do we go from here? LEV-2 @ 120K miles isn’t going to cut it imho. I still think Ford might have the answer with its PZEV rated META-One but until they offer the darn CI-ICE to the public, MB and VW are going to sell barely LEV-2 capable diesels in late 2006 when on LSD. It is 2 step forwards in terms of FE but one back given the emissions by comparison to the LS gasoline that will hit at the same time. I would drive an 07 CI-ICE that barely meets the federal specs if the price was right but I will probably be on the sidelines waiting for the much less expensive UREA injected SCR solution to proliferate first.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

I can't believe you guys turned this thread into a hybrid vs diesel thread. I quit posting at Tom's Hardware because of the stupid Intel vs AMD arguments. Seems like every thread degraded into one of said arguments.

Someday we will have diesel hybrids, then what are you going to fuss about?

Split the thread for ya...

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