This isn't about right or wrong; it's about safe or unsafe. If everyone is going 65 and one person is going 45, that is a dangerous situation, regardless of whether the speed limit is 65 or 45.

You mean like when the colonists revolted against England?! (Just throwing another log on the fire... Hell, everyone else is using far out hypothetical examples!)

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I can cite a situation of putting one's own safety over right and wrong. In New York City back in 1964, there were 37 witnessness to the murder of Kitty Genovese that did not bother to report it. It was about safety (or indifference) over right and wrong - wonderful!

I've stated at least a couple of times I can be doing 55-60mph on the rightmost lane on a six-lane freeway with a 60mph limit, yet someone occasionally passed by me using the shoulder sometimes. A few here seem to think mob rule or the law of the jungle should prevail. Again, be consistent and insist that stop lights be optional as well.

An ex-coworker was very much in the "do your own thing" camp - stuff like go as fast as you like on the freeway. He also complained frequently about "life is not fair".....guess what? Rules are to address life's inequities - take them away and more raw deals come your way.

This might merit going into an FAQ at www.greenhybrid.com - stating the common knowledge that the EPA milage estimates do not reflect today's typical driving for any vehicle. For those that routinely exceed the speed limit and vary their speed a lot - don't whine about your bad fuel economy, blameing everything except your own actions. Get real.

While a hybrid can deliver better fuel economy, some can defeat it's purpose. Anything can be abused.

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

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"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

CGameProgrammer, you have a good point.

If the speed limit is 45 mph and everyone is driving 65, they (the pack) are driving unsafe.

Regards,

It seems pack speeds are getting faster and faster. 65mph, then 70mph, then 75mph...is the sky the limit?

Another slant: it may be overdue for law enforcement to enforce the speed limit if people are going 65 in a 45 zone.

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

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"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

Around here the police usually wont take notice unless someone is doing more than 10 above the limit.

Speeding and running traffic lights and stop signs endangers everyone. Yesterday I had someone honk at me because I actually came to a FULL stop instead of rollilng the stop sign (not good for my hyper-miling status, but oh well). How dare I actually obey the law, eh?

Michigan has been having a "Click-it or Ticket" campaign this summer. They set a spotter car (usually hidden) who then radios in all the cars that need to be pulled over for lack of wearing the seat belt. These people are then pulled over by a FLEET of police cars down the street. This summer it hasn't been unusual to see a sting operation with a dozen people pulled over at the same time.

It's good that they are campaigning to enforce driving laws, but I think there are far more dangerous things that they need to be enforcing as a matter of priorities. 80 in a 55 is COMMON on the freeways and it's quite rare to see anybody getting a ticket for it. We also have the "three on a red" problem (people don't even CONSIDER stopping when the light starts to change -- to the point that once the light actually changes to red a few cars still run it.) I"d much rather see campaigns for these problems before "Click-it or Ticket".

I'm not trying to get a judge or jury to side with me, if you want to be the one clobbered from behind, so be it. I'm saying that if you want to be the cause of traffic then pray people are as patient as you are when they cut you off. I just hate the arguement that we might as well not obey any traffic laws if speeding isn't really considered breaking the law. Running a stop sign versus going 15mph over the limit on a highway... BIG difference.

The opposite is true to, if I'm travelling at speeds above the limit I don't go more than 15 mph than the average, it just doesn't feel safe.

Also, as far as i know the legal speed limits were put into place as a response to fuel shortages and not in the name of safety (safety came as an afterthought). Otherwise why do we see highways going back up in speed limits?

I guess my biggest problem is that 90% of the people on this planet lack common sense.

That's not about safety regarding accidents, it's about doing what you're told to avoid being murdered, and that's obviously irrelevant to this conversation.

That's incredibly unsafe. No one is defending that.
The only people "doing their own thing" are the ones driving significantly slower than everyone else. And no, I don't mean you, since it sounds like you're not that slow.
By that logic, no one should drive 30mph in a 30mph zone, stop at a stop sign, or go 65mph in a 65mph zone, because all of those actions result in much less than optimal fuel economy. Oh, and I heard Volkswagen's TDi actually gets its best mileage at high speeds... I've never driven one so I can't confirm anything like this.

Do remember that engines are actually astonishingly inefficient right now. Often you can go to neutral (and turn the engine off in FAS cars) and see little or even no degradation in speed. Then you know all the gas the engine was burning was for naught. Diesel engines, I assume, can handle this situation better, and electric motors I think can as well, theoretically, though on most (all?) current hybrids, they tend to shut off for high-speed cruising.

I agree with this, I think there are a lot of people out there that think hybrids are slow. The HCH is harder to spot as a hybrid but I still get people looking and off the line, I can't be beat for the first 10 ft. hehe.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Running stop signs comes from the very same flawed-logic that speeding comes from. People speed because they ASSUME they can go that speed and that probably nothing bad will happen to them. Freeway pile-ups are an example of this -- these people are flying along and suddenly realize that they CANNOT stop or avoid an accident. This is why police usually give a ticket to everyone involved. The law says you must be in control of your vehicle. If you run into the pile -- even though you didn't "cause" the pile, it's still your fault. A driver obeying the law would have avoided it.

Running stop signs does the same thing. People glimpse up the road and ASSUME that there's no point in coming to a full stop because *obviously* traffic is clear so what's the point in stopping. Usually those people are glimpsing for only what they *expect* to see and only where they *expect* to see it. So they aren't necessarily checking for pedestrians crossing, bicycles, or even motorcycles. The point is they aren't being thorough.

In both cases drivers are making some _assumptions_ about what must be happening and as long as those assumptions are true the drivers don't have a problem. Turns out that usually the assumptions are true. On those rare occasions when the assumptions are not true they have accidents or, if they're lucky it'll just be a near-miss. A good driver wouldn't have had a near miss -- they'd have been more thorough and in control of their car.

Sort of. National highways speeds were 70mph. During the Carter administration and the shortages of the 70's the speed limit was dropped to 55 to save gas. That was eventually eliminated -- now we're just back to the speeds we used to have before.

Recognize that density of drivers on roads has changed -- so some areas that might have been 70 in the past might be 55 zones, but that's not a matter of saving fuel, that's a matter of safety because the traffic density is higher and likely safe-following-distances are reduced.

I agree... just recognize that "common sense" isn't just juding what is LIKELY to be on the road ahead, it's also juding what forseeably MIGHT be on the road ahead and still being in control.

I have never taken a state drivers test in any state other than Michigan, so I don't know how hard they are to pass. But in Michigan the test is a joke. A "hard" question would be to display the sillouette of an octagon and ask you what sign that is. I think drivers' tests should _actually_ be difficult to pass. The tests simply allow too many people to get away with not bothering to learn traffic laws.