Is there some reason why there are no FlexFuel cars in the US that are efficient to begin with? Looking through the list of cars on e85fuel.com, the smallest ones I could find were the 2.7L Chrysler Sebring and the luxury Mercedes C240, leaving a LOT of room for more efficient FlexFuel cars.

I don't understand why companies are offering this potentially revolutionary technology only in gas-guzzling vehicles. I mean, look at GM, who shows off its "Live Green Go Yellow" ad campaign with a massive Chevy Avalanche. If the Avalanche is rated for 14/18 on regular gasoline, what the heck can we expect on E85? Gallons per mile? In Brazil, you can buy small, efficient FlexFuel cars--why are the few E85 cars available in the US hulking beasts???

5.0L, 5000LB vehicles are NOT the path to energy independence, no matter what fuel they are burning.

Another somewhat related question, when will truly appealing FlexFuel cars arrive? Of course this is subjective, but I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who won't subject themselves to the mundaneness of Ford Tauruses or the hugeness of Chevy Avalanches just to run on E85. We need FlexFuel cars that are sensible: small, inexpensive, fun-to-drive, efficient. Why have we started off ethanol in the US on such a bad foot?

(Also posted in the Edmunds.com forum, but I thought posting here might lead to some good discussion)

Martinjlm talked to this some in a few threads. I'll paraphrase-

- Most E85 sold is in the cornbelt, where the preponderance of vehicles are...trucks.

- Many local governement and fleets have requirements to have xx% of their fleeet use alternative fuels. Fleets buy lots and lots of...trucks and bland sedans (This is actually the largest driver, I believe). Might as well sell the customer what they're required to buy anyway.

- Big, engines are/were easier to modify initially- tolerances are wider, and a host of other very valid engineering reasons.

- The makers used FFVs as 'credits' towards their CAFE requriements- each alt fuel vehicle offset a low-mpg vehicle sold to the public somewhere else. They were incentivized by Washington to build FFVs in this way. Free money- might as well build it on the cheapest/easiest platform in the inventory...trucks and high-volume sedans.


Its frustrating for now, but its changing. I'm waiting for my FFV hybrid Ford Edge (and Fusion)...

What about the 5.7 liter V-8 Hemi hybrid Durango?

/got nothing.

I have been talking to a guy on another forum who owns a FlexFuel Avalanche and his fuel economy on E85 is somehow the same as it is on gasoline. Don't ask me, I don't understand either. (I can think of a few ways to squeeze out the extra MPGs but I don't know what if any GM is using.)

I think we'll have to give the industry(s) more time before we see it. If we really are headed to an ethanol infrastructure we won't get the variety of vehicles until more people have access to the fuel, which won't happen until people have vehicles, which...ack. Let's just say there's a reason it hasn't happened yet. The good news is that the vehicles are in development, and exist in places such as Brazil. Saab, for example, has developed a 4-cylinder turbocharged powerplant that runs on gas but runs better on ethanol. More power and equivalent FE despite the slightly lower energy density of the fuel. Wanna run lean? How about increase your compression ratio to 12:1? You can do those things since the octane rating is so high.

If it's going to happen it will be worth the wait, I think.

Finally, a mainstream article that is pro-hybrid hypermiler!

Mentions there are serious hybrids such as the Prius, Insight, and Civic, then performance hybrids like the Accord, and "empty hybrids" such as the GM Silverado.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Union for Concerned Scientists Jason Mark
We think that hybrid technology ought to be reserved for the environmental and consumer benefits [it] can deliver. Every quasi-hybrid under the sun is being labeled as a hybrid for public relations benefits....hybrid technology should be put to better uses than turning a 16-mpg vehicle into an 18-mpg vehicle. The point is not to turn extreme gas-guzzlers into moderate gas guzzlers


This addresses the merits of hybrid Durangos and Escalades.

While GM is targeted as the worst, it pulls no punches with Toyota. Mentions that it has fought every attempt to upgrade the CAFE standards and the California greenhouse law.


MSNBC Story

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

Best Run >
www.cleanmpg.com

"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

The real question is why does corn ethanol exist? The farms take up an outrageous amount of space for the amount of energy you get back, and a lot of the energy you get from corn ethanol is from the PETROLEUM based fertilizers used to grow it.

I previously calculated that they would need every square inch of land to meet our current energy requirements.... and that was with current farming efficiencies which involve petroleum fertilizers. If they used more sustainable farming methods, they'd probably need an entire other planet.

Corn ethanol is a joke.

I also wonder if the sudden MPG drop has anything to do about it. We know that E85 doesn't burn as hot, and an E85 tank has less range than a regular gas tank, that perhaps they're shy about putting them into their smaller fuel efficient vehicles, who would suddenly just become small vehicles due to the change, getting the same or even worse MPGs with E85 that a regular SUV gets with gasoline. (Yes, I'm well aware that the E85 is obviously the "healthier" fuel, but it's pretty clear that Automakers think Autobuyers are morons.)

At the NAIAS (North American International Auto Show), all the Flex Fuel vehicles were labeled as such, and what their MPG with gas, and E85 was. There was a pretty big difference, as I recall there were a few with something like 24 MPG (Gas) 14 MPG (E85); a pretty big difference.

As mentioned, there's the breaks, the engineering, and a multitude of other reasons. There's also the thought that there isn't enough demand. Look at hybrids, we got announcements from GM that hybrids are a fad for years, and now they've suddenly changed their tune. Perhaps after a while, the FFV "fad" will be upon us.

First 4WD Hypermiler

Have you read the FEH FAQ?

Live in Michigan? Let it be known in Michigan Roll Call

Read My Automotive Blog at Rich Rambles

I'm confused... why does a car that runs on ALTERNATIVE fuel have to be fuel efficient? If a car can run on water but only get 1 mile to a gallon... well I don't see the problem.

The debate on Gasahol is are we really saving resources? (I'll let others debate that) I've seen a number of articles recently estimating that annually we consume the world's resources faster than they can be replentished. I would not expect estimates on global consumption to be precise - we can't predict the weather or stocks either.

From a resource standpoint (forests, fossil fuels, useable water, farms, livestock, minerals, etc) our world has been in a debt mode in recent years. It can't go on forever - it must be slowed, then reversed.

That's the answer to "is it OK to have a gas-guzzler if it runs on E85?"

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

Best Run >
www.cleanmpg.com

"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

Let's all remember that, although E85 and FFVs have been around for 20 years (well, 80 if you count the model T), but the push towards renewable fuels is only 3 months old, if you take the State of the Union Address as the start point of awareness for middle America.

Given that, FFV acceptance is at an even earlier/immature state than hybrid acceptance. It will take years of education from multiple industries to placate and convince consumers, and just as long to build up the infrastructure to seriously deploy E85 on a national scale. It cannot be sent through existing pipelines and needs to be mixed locally, so that's the biggest single engineering challenge beyond scaling production.

Give it some time. Frustrating, but it needs time to evolve.