GreenHybrid Interactive Hybrid Car Resource
Home Discuss Articles Compare Share Shop
GreenHybrid.com   Hybrid Car Forums   Tech Information   Mileage & Specs   Photo Gallery   Buying Guide  
GreenHybrid Mileage Database - Click here to track your MPG! Join Hybrid car discussions today - Create a FREE GreenHybrid Account

Go Back   GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars > Hybrid Topics > General Forum

General Forum Nonspecific discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 09:43 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Larry S. Singleton
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Hybrids: 2007 TCH and Loving It !
Posts: 1,427
Default

Well, diesel burns dirtier in the engine than gas, meaning more oil changes:

"As for maintenance, 3,000 mile oil changes are a must! Diesel fuel is not as refined as gasoline and the oil will get dirtier than a gasoline engine. I recommend replacing air and fuel filters once a year. If you live in a cold climate, you will need to switch to a winter blend fuel to prevent fuel gelling. There are additives you can put in the fuel to help prevent this as well."

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Lkq1Vez...irtier%3F&hl=en

Above link gives us this:

"Today’s Diesel Vehicles Pollute Too Much—and Diesel Fumes Can Kill "

Today’s diesel-fueled vehicles emit huge quantities of fine particulate matter, nitrogen oxides and dozens of toxic chemicals. While these vehicles can be more fuel-efficient, the health impacts of diesel emissions make this a bad – and unnecessary – trade-off, given the ability of today’s gasoline-powered vehicles technologies to meet S.517’s 35-mpg average requirement.
• Diesel particulate matter has been linked with a wide range of health impacts, including increased asthma attacks and respiratory emergencies, cancer, endocrine disruption, cardiopulmonary ailments, and premature death. Diesel engines emit many more particulates than gasoline engines—in midtown Manhattan, diesel engines emit more than half of the particulate matter inhaled by pedestrians, even though gasoline vehicles outnumber diesel vehicles by ten-to-one in New York State.
• Diesel exhaust contains more than 40 different chemical compounds that cause cancer, reproductive harm or other toxic impacts. Consequently, diesel exhaust has been found to be either a known, probable or likely carcinogen by the U.S. EPA, the U.S. National Toxicology Program, the U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, and the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer.
The California Air Resources Board estimates that 71 percent of the airborne cancer risk in Southern California is due to the 2 percent of vehicles that are diesel-fueled.
• Nitrogen oxides (NOx) contribute to ground-level ozone formation, acid deposition, nutrient pollution of waterways, crop damage and secondary (i.e., atmospheric) formation of particulate matter. Just as with particulates, diesel vehicles emit disproportionately high levels of NOx, compared to gasoline vehicles.
Diesel vehicles are responsible for 34.5 percent of all NOx emissions nationwide, despite fueling only about 12 percent of all vehicle miles traveled. EPA’s Tier 2 emission standards already allow diesel cars to be sold, and shouldn’t be weakened or delayed. Car companies that want to sell diesel cars often say, “our diesels are now clean.” Yet, the auto industry is expected to support amendments to S. 517 that would exempt these vehicles from thecurrent Tier 2 emission standards altogether; delay the implementation of Tier 2; or add new,
weaker emission standards for diesels in a revised Tier 2. Support of these amendments is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion that today’s diesels are “clean” and can meet current air protection standards.The Tier 2 standards, which will be phased in from mid-2003 to 2010, are most noteworthy forclosing an emissions gap that separates today’s car emission standards from the emission standards that govern SUVs and light-duty trucks. Moreover, the Tier 2 standards allow automakers to sell cars that are certified at various emission levels (called “bins” that rank from the cleanest Bin 1 to the dirtiest Bin 11), so long as their overall fleet emissions averages at the Bin 5 level. The current standard already allows diesel cars to be sold, and it is illogical to allow air protection standards to be weakened to sell more cars just because they claim to be cleaner. If new diesels are truly cleaner then they should have no trouble meeting current emissions standards.

European Tax Policy Favors Diesels, Resulting in Dirtier Cars Europeans have increasingly turned to diesel fuel because of preferential tax treatment for diesel vehicles—and diesel cars now comprise almost one-third of the market. These tax policies have been driven by heavy lobbying by the trucking industry, not by a responsible approach to environmental and energy policy. Diesel fuel is cheaper because it is exempt from many European taxes that have artificially elevated gasoline costs by as much as 86 percent. Thus, a gallon of unleaded gasoline in France costs an average of $3.66 as opposed to $2.75 for a gallon of diesel. In Germany, a gallon of gas costs $3.42 compared to $2.25 for diesel as a result of higher taxes. Europe’s diesel cars continue to be dirtier than gasoline-powered American cars, because of weaker European Union emission standards. New European standards (effective in 2008) will still allow five times as much particulate matter — and eight times as much NOx —as American standards will allow at that time.

Conclusion: S. 517 will increase corporate average fuel economy to 35 miles-per-gallon by 2013—the single biggest step towards U.S. energy security and decreased dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Achieving this goal is possible without compromising the health of millions of Americans by weakening or delaying the Tier 2 emission standards for diesel vehicles. If the new diesels are ruly cleaner, they should have no trouble meeting the same standards as gasoline–powered vehicles. NRDC strongly urges Congress to oppose any S. 517 amendments that would weaken ordelay the Tier 2 emission standards.

And another:

"The biggest downside to driving a diesel car has to do with emissions. Diesel cars may be cleaner than they used to be but they're still dirtier than gasoline cars, and a whole lot dirtier than a hybrid. And there's still a bit of a smell. "What you see and smell out of the tailpipe is typically worse than with a gasoline engine," says Larry Webster, technical editor at Car and Driver. Diesel cars spit out more particulates -- tiny particles of soot -- and more oxides of nitrogen (NOx), which contribute to local smog."

Diesel particulate filters may increase smog

"So-called clean diesel vehicles equipped with particulate traps are dirtier than older diesels in one respect: they produce more nitrogen dioxide.9 Nitrogen dioxide reacts to form ground-level ozone (smog). Most urban areas in California already exceed state standards for this pernicious air pollutant.10 The notoriously smoggy Los Angeles area tops the list of areas with ozone problems in the United States. It is the only area designated in extreme non-attainment with federal ozone standards.11 A recent study by researchers at the University of Southern California found that smog can cause childhood asthma."

"The toxic, sooty trail of diesel exhaust is a well-known health hazard"

"Diesel exhaust contains at least 40 different substances recognized as toxic air contaminants by CARB and is associated with severe health effects, such as cancer and asthma.13 CARB estimates that diesel exhaust alone causes 70 percent of Californians' risk of cancer from air pollution.14 Diesel particulates are associated with serious health effects ranging from heart and lung diseases to early death."

So as far as I can tell, it seems that dirty diesel is dirty diesel no matter how it is sliced.....
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 11:43 AM
GreenHybrid Founder
 
Real Name: Jason Siegel
Location: Houston, TX
Hybrids: 2004 Toyota Prius
Posts: 4,584
Default

[topic split from announcements]

.

Read my new biweekly column, The Western Street 7.
Visit my political debate forum, Volconvo.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 12:04 PM
Banned
 
Posts: 315
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by lars-ss@Nov 17th 2004 @ 12:43 PM
"As for maintenance, 3,000 mile oil changes are a must!"
Amazing. How is it possible for the NRDC to be so completely wrong? TDIs have a recommended interval of 10,000 miles. That's ~2500 miles longer than most gasoline engines.

I suspect the rest of NRDC's stuff is just as wrong.

.

What I was REALLY hoping you would give me Lars is this... actual emissions numbers:
VW Manual Beetle (grams/mile)
----- Gas TDI
NOx 1.3 2.7
PMs ----- ----- (not measured)
CO2 7.0 4.7
CO 1.10 0.01
HC 0.15 0.00 (evaporative)

These numbers are from 2000 and out-of-date, but you get the idea. The TDI is lower in every category except NOx, and that will be fixed in 2006. If you can offer up numbers that prove differently, please do so. I'll listen to EPA emissions tests.

Troy :-)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 01:21 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Larry S. Singleton
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Hybrids: 2007 TCH and Loving It !
Posts: 1,427
Default

Don't want to spend much more time on it - I think I already showed with pages of solid evidence that diesel exhaust is way more damaging than gas exhaust....

I can't see any scenario that would put a diesel in my garage......
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 02:42 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Larry S. Singleton
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Hybrids: 2007 TCH and Loving It !
Posts: 1,427
Default

No opinions here, just Facts:

"in midtown Manhattan, diesel engines emit more than half of the particulate matter inhaled by pedestrians, even though gasoline vehicles outnumber diesel vehicles by ten-to-one in New York State."

"Diesel exhaust contains more than 40 different chemical compounds that cause cancer, reproductive harm or other toxic impacts. Consequently, diesel exhaust has been found to be either a known, probable or likely carcinogen by the U.S. EPA, the U.S. National Toxicology Program, the U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, and the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer."

"What you see and smell out of the tailpipe is typically worse than with a gasoline engine," says Larry Webster, technical editor at Car and Driver. Diesel cars spit out more particulates -- tiny particles of soot -- and more oxides of nitrogen (NOx), which contribute to local smog."

"So-called clean diesel vehicles equipped with particulate traps are dirtier than older diesels in one respect: they produce more nitrogen dioxide.9 Nitrogen dioxide reacts to form ground-level ozone (smog). Most urban areas in California already exceed state standards for this pernicious air pollutant.10 The notoriously smoggy Los Angeles area tops the list of areas with ozone problems in the United States. It is the only area designated in extreme non-attainment with federal ozone standards.11 A recent study by researchers at the University of Southern California found that smog can cause childhood asthma."

I dont want my kids anywhere NEAR that sort of danger.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 02:52 PM
Hot_Georgia_2004's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Steve
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Hybrids: 2004 Civic CVT Hybrid
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
I dont want my kids anywhere NEAR that sort of danger.
I get off at 2AM right here in the City of Atlanta.
I think the air is just as bad at that time as when I arrive at 4:30PM and not sure how anyone can live in that 24 hours a day.
You can't even see any stars in the sky due to the lights and all the junk lingering in the air. :wacko:

That's another reason I am happy to commute 92 miles a day and my family remains in the fresh countryside air.

.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 11:56 PM
johanerlandsson's Avatar
Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Johan Erlandsson
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Hybrids: Prius I
Posts: 164
Default

This topic is really making me want to debate now... I am on a swedish forum where I argue AGAINST diesel, but here I have to argue FOR it. That's strange.

lars-ss,
that link you posted does not a single time mention CO2 and global warming, which makes it pretty much useless if you want to compare the emissions between diesel and gasoline cars. It would be healthier for this discussion if you admit that global warming is a problem, and we could then discuss what is worst, global warming or direct health problems. Or we could discuss the best way to get diesels clean, as I agree with you that they are not, today. But diesels DO emit a lot less CO2.

Can you give me a link to the information that diesels with particulate traps emit more NOx? That's news for me, and wasn't in the link you posted.

Steve,
I'm sure it's a good short-term solution for your family that you commute 92 miles a day. But it doesn't do any good at all for global warming, for the future of your kids and coming generations. Even though you are driving a hybrid. I'm not saying you are doing the wrong thing, but you describe a problem that has to be solved.

.

Johan Erlandsson

See mileage data for my 00 Prius.
See my environmental performance (still in swedish only, feel free to ask).
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2004, 02:08 AM
xcel's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Wayne Gerdes
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 2,567
Default

--

.




Last edited by xcel; 12-02-2007 at 05:30 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2004, 05:07 AM
Banned
 
Posts: 315
Default

I pulled the numbers from a very old EPA report on my hard drive. I would like to see up-to-date 2005 numbers if you or anyone else has them.

When comparing European to American remember = Europe has clean fuel like California's clean fuel (but EU has BOTH gas and diesel clean fuel) & therefore better filtering technologies.

.

Well Lars... you showed a lot of OPINIONS from an anti-diesel group, but no facts. That's okay. I showed with this:
2000 VW Manual Beetle (grams/mile)

----- Gas TDI
NOx 1.3 2.7
PMs ----- ----- (not measured)
CO2 7.0 4.7
CO 1.10 0.01
HC 0.15 0.00 (evaporative)

That diesels are cleaner in every category except NOx... and that can easily be filtered out. VW TDI diesels have already been promoted by fueleconomy.gov's green score:

2000 = 1
2005 = 6


I fully expect to see 2007 = 9 with the European clean-diesel technologies.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2004, 01:59 PM
xcel's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Wayne Gerdes
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 2,567
Default

--

.




Last edited by xcel; 12-02-2007 at 05:30 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Topic Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PM output of a gasoline car? ElectricTroy General Forum 6 12-27-2004 12:46 AM
Hybrid V.S. Diesel innkeeper Fuel Economy & Emissions 32 09-17-2004 07:40 PM
Emissions johanerlandsson General Forum 7 06-16-2004 06:41 PM
Car Emissions Lookup Jason General Forum 1 03-23-2004 06:00 PM
Emissions Impossible Jason Toyota Prius 3 02-22-2004 11:54 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:20 PM.


Home | Hybrid Discussion Forums | Hybrid Articles Archive | Mileage Database | Hybrid Photo Galleries | Compare Vehicles
Terms of Service - Privacy Policy - Advertising
GreenHybrid.com, Copyright 2008
InternetBrands.com Automotive Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51