Correction - It WAS dirtier and dangerous (just like gasoline exhaust pre-1980). Just as gasoline exhaust was cleaned up, so too was diesel.

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Show me one valid recent study that shows diesel (any diesel other than biodiesel, which is hard to get and make and use) that has exhaust cleaner and/or less carcinogenic than gasoline, or show me a study that says diesel does no longer causes immediate health problems in workers who are exposed to it daily, and I will submit to your superior knowledge.....

(waiting, waiting, waiting.....)

Another recent quote, even talking about clean diesel:

"Hermance, Executive Engineer for Environmental Engineering at Toyota, explains “clean diesel is a bit of an oxymoron, because clean diesel is not nearly as clean as gasoline, even in its clean state.” He admits that there will be a growing percentage of clean diesels in markets where the exhaust emission standards are less rigorous, and even applauds their performance. “The new TDI diesels are a hoot to drive. They’re great fun. We may be able to get them as clean as the average car. That’s the hope, but the hybrid technology can be way cleaner—90 percent cleaner than the average new car. So the probability of having clean diesel compete with hybrid vehicles on an absolute emissions basis just isn’t going to happen.”

Another:

Diesel Exhaust Exposure Raises Ovarian Cancer Risk
Reuters (13 Aug 2004 02:18 PM ET)
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NEW YORK, USA: The risk of ovarian cancer increases with increased exposure to diesel exhaust, according to a new study published in the International Journal of Cancer.

"Occupational exposure to diesel exhaust has been classified as probably carcinogenic and that to gasoline engine exhaust as possibly carcinogenic to humans," Dr. Johannes Guo, of the Finnish Institute of Occupational Health, Helsinki, and colleagues write. "Earlier results concerning cancers other than lung cancer are scarce and inconsistent, and exposure-response relations have seldom been reported."

The researchers assessed the risk a variety of cancers than may be associated with engine exhaust exposure. These included leukemia and cancers of the throat, ovaries, testes, kidney and bladder.

Another:

Diesel exhaust is known to cause cancer, asthma, and other respiratory diseases.
The health risk from diesel exposure is greatest for children and the elderly. The proximity of a child’s residence and school to major roads is linked to asthma occurrence. Asthma limits children’s ability to participate in sports, and is the most common cause of children’s absence from school due to hospitalization. The State of California decided that there is enough evidence to list the particulate matter in diesel exhaust as a toxic air contaminant. Exhaust from heavy-duty diesel engines contains between 100-200 times more small particles than gasoline engine exhaust. California’s Scientific Review Panel estimates that 16,000 Californians will develop lung cancer over a lifetime of diesel exhaust exposure. Only 2 percent of the vehicles on California’s roads run on diesel. Yet they account for 31 percent of smog-forming nitrogen oxides, and for 79 percent of particular matter emissions from on-road vehicles. Cleaner alternatives to diesel are available, such as liquefied natural gas, compressed natural gas, or propane. Electric or fuel-cell engines are being enhanced to provide future alternatives

Diesel Particulate Matter - Diesel exhaust is a mixture of over 450 components, including vapors and fine particles. Diesel engines emit 100 times more sooty particles than gasoline engines and as a result, account for an approximately 26 percent of the total hazardous particulate pollution from fuel combustion in the air, and 66 percent of the particulate pollution from on-road sources. They also produce almost 20 percent of the total nitrogen oxides (NOx) in outdoor air and 26 percent of the total NOx from on-road sources. Nitrogen oxides are a major contributor to ozone production and smog. Health effects include cancer, exacerbation of asthma and other respiratory diseases. Those with the greatest risk include children, the elderly, people who have respiratory problems or who smoke, people who exercise in diesel-polluted areas, and people who work or live near diesel exhaust sources.

From this MSNBC.com article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4541174/

"He adds that while the manual Beetle TDI reached "the cleanest level a diesel passenger vehicle has ever been certified to" that level "is not a remarkably clean standard. Today's cleanest hybrid-electric and conventional gasoline vehicles meet emission standards much cleaner. ... the Toyota Prius (hybrid) meets a NOx level 10 times cleaner."

- "Prius is ten times cleaner" is inaccurate. According to fueleconomy.gov, Prius is a 9 & TDI is a 6 which means the smog output of the VW TDI is only *4* times more.

- A hybrid vs. non-hybrid comparison is NOT fair. After all, a TDI *could* be hybridized, drive around on pure electric, and be ultra-clean just like a Prius.

- Also the U.S. version is NOT the cleanest diesel. European TDIs are much, much cleaner (no sulfur fuel) and would likely tie the Prius in cleanliness.

You keep quoting sources, and these sources continue to be inaccurate.

I don't know what other research to do - I go to Google and find sources and studies and post it. None of what I posted was incorrect or a lie. This is not 1985 when you have to go to the Library to find pertinent information. It's available realtime. And I am not a fuel exhaust researcher, so I cannot "do my own" studies.

If you cannot trust the people who do this for a living and post their findings, who can you trust? What should I do, go smell an exhaust pipe?

All I'm trying to point out two things:

1) Gasoline exhaust is safer than Diesel exhaust, even CLEAN diesel, and
2) Hybrids are as good as or in most cases better than diesel cars in the big picture when you are talking about emissions.

The terms "hybrids" and "diesel" are not mutually exclusive, as you imply. There is such a thing as a diesel-hybrid... which would of course be higher MPG than a gasoline-hybrid.


As for cleanliness, the 80 mpg Lupo 3L is rated by the European Union as the world's cleanest car. Not bad for a diesel.

Yes, Hybrid diesels are more efficient than gasoline Hybrids, true. Problem is (for passenger cars) that you would have a much more expensive car if you married the diesel to a Hybrid, and that has been a problem for the car companies.

Then, also, in the case of the USA customer, you would have to overcome NOT ONLY the stigma of diesel but also the "do you have to plug it in at night?" mentality of the "hybrid-uneducated" public.

And, with the D/E hybrid, you would still have diesel exhaust. And so far, nothing I have read anywhere has convinced me or even insinuated scientifically that diesel exhaust is as safe or safer than gasoline exhaust.

I'll have to look into that EU Lupo thingie........they must use different ratings than the EPA to come to THAT conclusion..... :blink: