Quoting from Clayton's, "Toyota lowered the price significantly on the Prius battery pack, from $4500 on the first model to around $3000 on the latest version, though unlike Honda, which offers an eight year warranty on the battery, Toyota only offers five years."
These may be accurate Australian prices, and I have not seen a compilation on hybrid vehicle warranties worldwide. The HV battery warranty on US Prius is now 150k miles in "CARB" states and 100k miles elsewhere.The latest battery price from Toyota that I have read was $1100, but this was as printed on a warranty replacement, not paid by the customer. It could be higher, if it turns out that someone actually pays it.
My 2001 Prius might last long enough for the HV battery to fail. If it does I will probably buy two used batteries from the salvage vehicle market and use the best 28 modules. That might cost about $1000. Then I will let Toyota pay me $200 for the rest.
It raises an interesting point, also implied by Brick: The 1/4 million hybrids in the US are managing pretty well on their battteries, while the 170 million automatic transmission vehicles support several repair chains dedicated to keeping those complex devices functioning. Perhaps if their _are_ HV battery shops later, I won't be able to talk about this hidden cost of non-hybrids! For now, my total ownership costs are 22 cents per mile.
I'll reword my question. Can a Prius still be a useful vehicle without a replacement battery? Can it simply act as a gas only vehicle in the event that the 200 VDC battery dies.
Thanks
The Prius I belive cannot operate with a dead 200V pack, as the transmission/starter relies on the electric power to function. The Honda system however has a backup starter, and a somewhat more powerful engine, so it would function with a dead pack (it's designed so you don't get stuck if your main pack is drained). However, with no alternator, it woudl need to at least have a connection between the motor/generator and the DC converter to recharge the 12V pack... It might be possible to fit a cheap alternator on somewhere on the Civic also, that's probably all it would take to make it workable. On the Prius though, the entire powertrain pretty much relies on the pack.
I'll reword my question. Can a Prius still be a useful vehicle without a replacement battery? Can it simply act as a gas only vehicle in the event that the 200 VDC battery dies.
Without a 200 VDC battery, the Prius can not move. The engine can not start since MG1 won't have the power needed to spin it. The Prius has no 12 V. starter and Bendix gear because it is built into the transaxle and driven by the 200+ VAC, MG1.
Let me propose a better question: "How much 200 VDC, Amp-Hour capacity is needed?" This is a better question because it addresses how small or worn-out can the 200 VDC battery be.
We have one data point for the Prius I, the 273 VDC battery system. Apparently the 160,000 mile Prii were stiill getting excellent MPG with only 2.6 AH versus the original 6.5 AH. The HCH were doing the same with 4.1 AH vs. 6.0 AH initial capacity. The source reports are found under "Model Comparison" area ... look at the thread titled "Fleet Performance" and you'll find the original Dept. of Energy report.
This is way too alarmist for my taste. (Tim is looking around the room... oh, there's my high-horse).
Mounting high-horse.
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Originally Posted by clayton4115
But the substantial hidden costs of owning a hybrid car could make it a financial time bomb.
There's nothing "hidden" about this cost. What battery doesn't eventually need replacement? Sales people were up-front about this. And I'll tell you what a financial time-bomb is - my friends late 90's Dodge truck that needed a new $2500 transmission for no apparant reason. Yet you don't get articles like this on issues like that. Tell me what car is not at risk for a $600-$800 repair after 8 years? The batteries are just another thing to repair - and at least you know about it, unlike my friend...
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayton4115
Toyota's manager of alternative fuels and specialized vehicles, Vic Johnstone, concedes the batteries, like the car itself, are built to last less than a decade. "The life of the car and the battery are supposed to be the same... around 8 to 10 years," he said. "We're not expecting to replace them [the batteries]. In fact we only hold one [replacement] battery in stock nationally."
Considering folks are generally easy on their hybrids, I doubt the doors will suddenly fall off at 10 years. And one pack per 500 cars seems about right - if anything it endorses their confidence in the packs by having so few spares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayton4115
Fleet managers turn over their vehicles after 2-3 years, meaning unsuspecting second hand buyers will be stuck with an unexpected and unwanted bill down the track.
May be unwanted, but again there's nothing unexpected about batteries wearing out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayton4115
Despite the dramatic price drop, hybrid ownership remains a nod to better fuel economy, not financial savings. CarPoint's review of the Prius, published in October, compared the hybrid's fuel consumption to a similarly specified Toyota Corolla, and reached the conclusion it would take 15 years before the Prius' fuel economy paid off the extra purchase price.
Nonsense. There are so many factors at play this is just a reckless and irresponsible claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayton4115
Add battery replacement every eight years to this equation, and replacement parts costs as the vehicle exceeds its planned life of ten years and components wear out, and owners have no chance of ever seeing a dollar back.
Again, absolute nonsense.
"Hybrid" cost of my Civic over an LX - $1800 (US)
Projection of battery replacement cost in 2011 - $600 (US)
Cost savings per year in fuel - $480 (compared to what I was driving, which is the only real comparison to make here)
Fuel cost recoverd over 8 years - $3840
Hybrid and battery costs = $2400
There - I'm $1440 ahead after 8 years with new batteries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayton4115
Most agree that hybrid vehicles are a stepping stone to fuel cell technology, which requires a major infrastructure overhaul to be practical, but it's hard to see a single financial reason for consumers to buy petrol/electric hybrids.
It's only hard to see when we get this kind of journalism with wild claims and poor research. It doesn't seem that our buddy Glenn here even talked to one hybrid owner. Typical.
I have read in numerous publications that a large percentage of hybrids will be government owned. Of course I can't find those sources when I need them. Could you please share your reference as to where you read about the disproportionate amount of government owned hybrids?
I have read in numerous publications that a large percentage of hybrids will be government owned. . . .
Which government? If you will check the "Model Comparison" area under the "Fleet report" thread you'll find some links to government reports. However, the number of hybrids are fairly small.
Alternatively, start counting the number of hybrids you see and how many have government tags in your area. In Huntsville, I've seen six Prius I, two Prius II, one Insight and can't indentify the HCHs . . . they are indistinct. Regardless, so far, 0% government tagged. This includes the vehicles at Marshall Space Flight Center, NASA, and what I've seen at Redstone Arsenal.
By all means, do find your source and let us know if it is the United State or state government that has all of these hybrids. In the meanwhile, I've subscribed to the GSA annoucements for any hybrid-electric vehicles. This could work:
I'm sorry I can't provide a source, but Washington State uses many Prius I's in the fleet. I have a friend to drives one at work. I can't tell what # "many" are, but they're all white... :-)
Government fleets-
Nothing like driving a car you don't own with an unlimited gasoline bill.
Years ago I drove a compact Nissan company truck with unlimited gas.
Saving fuel/money were the furthest from my mind.
The truck was rated 26MPG combined and I doubt if I got 12.
Most of the time the foot feed was either full on or full off.
We all drove them that way.
Held up pretty good I think considering my fleet comments above.
Notice it was the CVT, CAT and MT that had additional maintenance cost, not the hybrid battery or other systems.
Quote:
I have read in numerous publications that a large percentage of hybrids will be government owned.
It would be helpful if you could find a few of those numerous pubs.
Could it be possible that you are confusing the defunked EV's with today's hybrids?
Efficient drivers do it better. 1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT
Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF HYBRID CARS
Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF HYBRID CARS
Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF HYBRID CARS
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT
