Not here to bad mouth the Highlander Hybrid, but I'd like to ask some questions to compare hypermiling abilities with my FEH.

For those that don't know me, I get some outstanding mileage on a regular basis because the FEH has some built-in features I take advantage of. Also, it's getting time to replace my '02 Explorer for another vehicle that can tow my 3,200 pound Boston Whaler to the Florida Keys. The THH can do this with no problem, right?

The fake shift in LOW or "L" is something I use everyday to pack a big charge in my HV battery. When you let off the gas pedal like you would to shift a manual transmission, strong regen comes from the traction motor from the wheels. This allows me to drive in the city over 50% of the time in EV. Does the THH have this ability?

With a full HV battery, I can drive in EV up to 39mph for a distance of 1.3 to 2 miles. How is EV in the THH?

When I shift to neutral in my FEH, the output shaft is disengaged from the drive wheels. This allows for a 38 percent longer coast than "D" from 40mph to a stop. In addition, neutral allows the FEH to be towed all four wheels down, even as a toad behind a motorhome up to 75mph. Anyone know if the THH can do this?

During warm-up, you can shift to neutral for a long glide with the key off, and restart the FEH above 6mph anytime for P&G. This is referred to FAS or forced auto stop my hypermilers. I've been told the Prius cannot be started in neutral on the move or at a stop, what about the THH?

When you first start up the FEH, it uses the electric motors for torque while the ICE remains at an idle using less gas. During this time I can speed up to 40+mph and Key-Off FAS in neutral for a glide. This help me keep my warm-up MPG average from 35-62mpg during my coldest warm-ups. Is this possible at all in the THH?

So far, my best 20 mile round trip is 70.3mpg with the battery level the same when I started the RT (no FAS was used during the RT and the roads were level). Does anyone have what the THH is capable of on a RT?

My best tank average has been in the lower 50mpg range, What is the best tank average in the THH that anyone has reported?

My conditions are very good for good MPG in my FEH, and very few FEH owners get my results. The THH is a larger vehicle and can tow my boat, but all I looking for is what a person like myself could push the THH mileage too. Again, not trying to bad mouth the THH, and I love the Prius mileage, but I need the SUV's for my purposes.

Thanks

GaryG

Gary:
I figure you'll get a little bit less mpg than you do in the FEH, due to the differences in the weight of the trucks. I own both.

The major difference in the two systems is that you don't have to 'trick' the ICE into turning off, once the system is warmed up. You just lift your foot off the accellerator and it turns off. Further, the ev will run at any speed where it is capable of pushing the car. I regularly use the ev at speeds in the 44-50 mph zone. On the freeway, on a long but not steep downhill where coasting would bring you below 50, the ev will hold your speed. Also because the EV package has so much more power avaialbe, it will carry you up those little upgrades that would cause the FEH to start the ICE.

Low in the HH is called "B", for whatever reason. It uses enging braking to slow the truck down, so one can't use it like one uses "L" in the FEH, but since you don't have to trick the ICE into shutting down, it is less necessary.

I have no numbers to prove that coasting in "N" works the same way as it does in the FEH, but I use it the same way and it seems to provide longer and 'free-er' coasting.

OH, the a/c is separate from the defroster, so you can run the defroster without penalty, AND if you do run the AC, it is electrically driven, instead of run off the ICE.

My sense is that the HH warms up more quickly than the FEH. I don't have any numbers to prove it, it just seems to be ready to shut down the ICE a couple of blocks earlier on the way to take the kids to school on a cold morning.

I don't use FAS, so I can't comment on that.

My trucks get driven by my wife, who is NOT a hypermiler. I get 33-35 mpg tanks on the FEH AWD, and 30-32 mpg tanks on the HH when I get either one for a whole tanks worth.

I'm in California, so I can't just offer to go for a ride with you... or I would.

Thanks Mark

"The major difference in the two systems is that you don't have to 'trick' the ICE into turning off, once the system is warmed up. You just lift your foot off the accellerator and it turns off."

My wife would get much better mileage with that feature.

"Further, the ev will run at any speed where it is capable of pushing the car. I regularly use the ev at speeds in the 44-50 mph zone. On the freeway, on a long but not steep downhill where coasting would bring you below 50, the ev will hold your speed. Also because the EV package has so much more power avaialbe, it will carry you up those little upgrades that would cause the FEH to start the ICE."

So your saying EV is possible up to 50mph?

"Low in the HH is called "B", for whatever reason. It uses enging braking to slow the truck down, so one can't use it like one uses "L" in the FEH, but since you don't have to trick the ICE into shutting down, it is less necessary."

Ok, let me understand this better. The FEH does not have engine braking, it uses the traction motor as a generator which slows you down. I think "B" is the same thing as the FEH "L" and will charge the battery faster with pure regen, am I right? I use "L" for both shutdown, but mainly for regen to continue long EV driving. So the HH can travel at speeds up to 50mph, but can you give me a distance before the battery restarts the ICE?

"I have no numbers to prove that coasting in "N" works the same way as it does in the FEH, but I use it the same way and it seems to provide longer and 'free-er' coasting."

Can the HH be towed all four wheels down in neutral? That will help me figure the drive link. Also, does coasting in neutral feel free-er than Drive?

"OH, the a/c is separate from the defroster, so you can run the defroster without penalty, AND if you do run the AC, it is electrically driven, instead of run off the ICE."

I like the sound of that!

"My trucks get driven by my wife, who is NOT a hypermiler. I get 33-35 mpg tanks on the FEH AWD, and 30-32 mpg tanks on the HH when I get either one for a whole tanks worth."

That's very good mileage for the AWD FEH, is your HH 2WD or 4WD? I would only be interested in the 2WD HH down here. At any rate, 30-32mpg is much better than I've heard in any case.

"I'm in California, so I can't just offer to go for a ride with you... or I would."

Thanks, I grew up in Santa Clara but love the Ocean for diving and fishing here.

I ask a mouthful of questions, but does anyone else here have anything to add to Mark's great comments? Also, came back to Mark for more clarification with more questions.

TIA
GaryG

Joe,

You seemed to have left out that Toyota recalled more cars in 2006 than they sold. That's pretty staggering. I used to be a pretty big Toyota fan but they haven't handled the ramp up of production very well.

Gary:
“So your saying EV is possible up to 50mph? “

Seen it in EV as high as 65. Not speed limited. They must have figured out how to beat the torque shock that limits the other hybrids.

“Ok, let me understand this better. The FEH does not have engine braking, it uses the traction motor as a generator which slows you down. I think "B" is the same thing as the FEH "L" and will charge the battery faster with pure regen, am I right? I use "L" for both shutdown, but mainly for regen to continue long EV driving. So the HH can travel at speeds up to 50mph, but can you give me a distance before the battery restarts the ICE?”

“B” is not the same as “L” because of the engine braking. You get the extra regen like the FEH, but you pay an engine braking penalty as well, so it fails the efficiency test. This is according to the manual.

I have a couple of runs in my daily drive where I run a little more than a mile. I can do the same run the same way in either vehicle. The biggest difference is that if I hit a bump and ‘drop out’ of EV in the FEH I have to double tap or hit L to get back into EV. On the HH, I just lift and re-apply the throttle, much like a fake shift.
I use it the same way and it seems to provide longer and 'free-er' coasting."

“Can the HH be towed all four wheels down in neutral? That will help me figure the drive link. Also, does coasting in neutral feel free-er than Drive?”

Don’t know about the towing. It feels exactly the same when coasting as the FEH does.

“That's very good mileage for the AWD FEH, is your HH 2WD or 4WD? I would only be interested in the 2WD HH down here. At any rate, 30-32mpg is much better than I've heard in any case.”

Mine is an AWD. The third traction motor lives in the rear of the truck and is only invoked when traction or acceleration requires it. No real penalty except for weight, AND it does contribute to regen.

The HH is REALY powerful. The ICE makes 212 lb/ft of torque, the motors make 247 lb/ft and the addition rear adds 96 lb/ft. That’s well over 550 lb/ft.; enough to melt all four tires were it not for traction control. I’ve seen road test times of 6.2 sec 0-60 with 15.23 quarters. You don’t have to use it, but it is nice to have it on tap.

The bottom line is that everyone has different needs and different experiences. For some the Highlander fits and is great, for others the FEH is perfect. Is there really any need to argue which is "better" when we are talking about something that is mostly a matter of preference? Are we going to have an argument about which is better cookies or ice cream?

Also, there are tests, surveys, reports, etc. that "show" any one vehicle is better. According to JD Power, I'm glad I bought a Mercury!!! (even though they are identical to the Fords somehow they are made better????)

It could be worse, we could all be waiting for our Land Rovers to get out of the shop!

-Tim

2006 Mercury Mariner Hybrid AWD
Black with Pebble interior
Premium Package with Nav & Moonroof



Current ODO: 26,152
Typical Drive: 20 min crosstown in heavy traffic (3.5mi there and back twice a day)


532 Gallons of gas saved
That's 10,642 lbs less CO2 emitted

Hey Tim:
Gary asked me what was 'different'.
I have both trucks, so I was trying to list the differences.

I like 'em both!

MM

I know you've probably spent weeks sorting through 'proof' to convert the darkside to TOY. But I ain't gonna read it, hope that's ok.

It's a matter of COMMON SENSE to an ol' hill-billy like me. If ya drive a 4wd truck like Jr. Johnson in the Daytona you're probably gonna roll it. I don't need a lab coat to tell me that. Recalls, yeah, all of my Japanese cars have been recalled for something. Your point is....?

Dude, it's easy, don't like it - DON'T BUY IT. If I thought the Toyota, in any configuration, was a better offering for the money I would've bought it instead.

Yeah, you got it: spud

Thanks pard and Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

Please Don't Feed the Trolls


4WD

"You have received an infraction at GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars"
At: http://greenhybrid.com/discuss/showthread.php?t=12748

Thanks again Mark

"Seen it in EV as high as 65. Not speed limited. They must have figured out how to beat the torque shock that limits the other hybrids."

Wow!

"“B” is not the same as “L” because of the engine braking. You get the extra regen like the FEH, but you pay an engine braking penalty as well, so it fails the efficiency test. This is according to the manual."

In order to know you have real engine braking, the RPM's must increase when you let off the gas pedal I would think like it does in 1st or 2nd in a standard automatic or any gear with a manual transmission in a lower gear than your speed. The HH has a eCVT right? The reason I bring this up is the FEH manual uses engine braking terms when it's talking about regen. The FEH is only simulating engine braking so they use that term. Could it be Toyota does the same thing?

"I have a couple of runs in my daily drive where I run a little more than a mile. I can do the same run the same way in either vehicle. The biggest difference is that if I hit a bump and ‘drop out’ of EV in the FEH I have to double tap or hit L to get back into EV. On the HH, I just lift and re-apply the throttle, much like a fake shift."

That sounds great!

"I use it the same way and it seems to provide longer and 'free-er' coasting."

Ok

"Don’t know about the towing. It feels exactly the same when coasting as the FEH does."

It would be in the owners manual under towing or Recreational Vehicle maybe.

"Mine is an AWD. The third traction motor lives in the rear of the truck and is only invoked when traction or acceleration requires it. No real penalty except for weight, AND it does contribute to regen."

I knew about the separate motor and did wonder about regen.

"The HH is REALY powerful. The ICE makes 212 lb/ft of torque, the motors make 247 lb/ft and the addition rear adds 96 lb/ft. That’s well over 550 lb/ft.; enough to melt all four tires were it not for traction control. I’ve seen road test times of 6.2 sec 0-60 with 15.23 quarters. You don’t have to use it, but it is nice to have it on tap."

That's more than enough power for me these days. The way I figure out what works and what doesn't for MPG, I think I would have a field day with the 2WD HH. The one thing that turned me off early was I was told you must run premium fuel to get the better mileage, is this true?

GaryG

I don't use Premium fuel. I use Sams Club , very cheap gas and I get 30 MPG in my HH. It is powerfull, a total of 268 HP and a 0-60 time of 8 Seconds on the FWD Highlander. Mine is plenty powerfull actually