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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 05:17 AM
ElectricTroy ElectricTroy is offline
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Yes true but...



Particulate emissions from gasoline engines have been discovered to cause respiratory disorder & heart arythmia. The particles are small enough to enter directly into the bloodstream and interfere with oxygen-exchange & autonomic nervous functions. - Source: Science News, June 2003.

See? Particulate emissions are a problem for ALL engines, diesel or gasoline.



As for the other stuff you mentioned:
--- GASOLINE DIESEL
CO2= high - less (MPG-dependent)
CO = high - virtually zero
HC = high - virtually zero
--- = high - virtually zero (evaporative emissions)
PMs = same - same
NOx = low - high

Overall I think the pollution argument favors diesels, and that's why the European Union favors diesel as a way to meet Pollution & Kyoto requirements. And the EPA GREET studies shows diesel-electrics as the least polluting vehicle.

IMHO.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 05:56 AM
lars-ss lars-ss is offline
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The problem with diesel-electrics seems to be making them cost effective in consumer vehicles. Has yet to be done on a scale large enough to make a difference.

Personally, diesel exhaust make me nauseous. I can't stand to be around it. So I would never willingly drive or buy one, regardless.

But I'm happy for those who like their diesels - more power to them.

But under no stretch is diesel cleaner than gas. That's why CA and other states have outlawed them.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 06:06 AM
ElectricTroy ElectricTroy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by lars-ss@Nov 10th 2004 @ 8:56 AM
But under no stretch is diesel cleaner than gas. That's why CA and other states have outlawed them.
They have?
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 06:29 AM
lars-ss lars-ss is offline
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not really OUTLAWED, just forbid selling them. You cannot buy a VW TDI in CA because they do not meet the "clean air" standards.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 08:17 AM
ElectricTroy ElectricTroy is offline
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I searched & searched to find an article that said, "California forbids sale of diesel cars/trucks" and found nothing.

On the contrary, I found this: "Clean-Air Czar of California Shifts to Accept Diesel Engines":
http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=294
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 08:22 AM
lars-ss lars-ss is offline
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There's this guy on Edmunds forums named gagrice that is FOREVER complaining about "not being able to buy a diesel car" in CA because they do not meet CA clean air standards.

More, from World Auto View website:

"VW's TDI diesels pack a wallop of torque, scream down the highway and can run forever on a tank of fuel. They meet California's strict requirements for carbon dioxide and hydrocarbon emissions, but fail to meet the guidelines for nitrous oxide -- a precursor of smog -- and particulate, or soot, emissions. That could change. With low-sulfur diesel fuel like that already burning in European diesels, VW thinks it could meet California's air-quality rules, which are to be adopted by the federal Environmental Protection Agency in 2004. The sooner oil companies deliver low-sulfur fuels to the U.S. market, the better. "

More from a Car and Driver article:

"The trouble with diesels in the U.S. is at the tailpipe. They can't pass the emissions regs that go into effect in California this year and phase in across the country over the next four years. This may surprise those who've seen or sniffed the exhaust coming out of the latest passenger-car diesels—it looks and smells as clean as that of a gas engine to the naked eye or nose. The diesel combustion process, in which the air-fuel mixture is ignited not by a spark plug but by the high temperature and pressure created by a high compression ratio, is naturally clean in terms of carbon moNOXide, hydrocarbons, and other organic gases, so those standards are easily met. But those high temperatures and pressures result in oxides of nitrogen (NOX) and particulate matter—the soot your Olds diesel belched—that are very difficult to clean up, and the new standards apply equally to all fuels. No more special dispensation for diesel."

From a USA Today article:

"TDI models are not available in California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine or Vermont because those states have different anti-pollution standards. "

From another USA Today article:

"There's also the fact that modern diesels still can't pass the most stringent air standards — those enforced by California and four other states — because of their emissions of nitrogen oxides, or NOx, a key ingredient for smog. "

So there's your scoop............My guess is that you cannot get them registered with the MVD in CA.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:47 AM
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Hi ElectricTroy:

___Even the latest Euro spec IV diesel emits ~ 15 X as much NOx and 2.5X as much PM an SULEV based SI ICE. It (a Euro IV spec Diesel) emits the same amount of HC and ~ ˝ the amount of CO however.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

.



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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:52 AM
ElectricTroy ElectricTroy is offline
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(ponder)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. To me, diesel still makes more sense. Higher efficiency = less oil burned = fewer refineries needed = less overall pollution.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 10:01 AM
lars-ss lars-ss is offline
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Quote:
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. To me, diesel still makes more sense. Higher efficiency = less oil burned = fewer refineries needed = less overall pollution.
Diesels will NEVER be a big hit in the USA unless they do something amazing with technology to clean the exhaust before it hits the end of the tailpipe......
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2004, 10:10 AM
ElectricTroy ElectricTroy is offline
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Actually two things:
(1) An Insight-style catalyst which converts NOx to harmless N2 & O2
(2) A PM-capture filter.

These are the technologies being phased into Europe cars (where diesels are 50% of the market).


Now maybe you're right. Maybe Americans will react to diesels the same way they react to hybrids - not buy them & badmouth them in the press & ban hybrid owners from forums. We'll just have to wait and see.
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