Lifespan of a gasoline car is 250-300,000 miles typical. Lifespan of a diesel is 500-600,000 miles.
Quite a while ago I did some research on this, mainly "for sale" posts around the net and found that diesel cars do not typically last longer.
I only saw one diesel car at the time that had over 450K miles on it. The vast majority had 35K to 150K, some 150K to 300K, a few with 300K to 400K miles logged.
However there are quite alot of Toyotas and Hondas in the exact same range.
I think the contention is that if you strip the car down to engine *only*, reliability goes up
R2-E2, 2G Prius.
Highway/City/Husband/Wife MPG: 56.5, as of 12/2005, 26K miles
Jac Nasser, Ford President: "We are planning to launch a hybrid version of
this car [P2000] within this year [1998]. We will also make FCEV available in
2004."
I think the contention is that if you strip the car down to engine *only*, reliability goes up
Pollution would also go up, given the worn parts and aging pollution control equipment.
One thing I think that is totally missing from the hybrid discussions is how to get the old smokies off the road. When I visited France they had a program in full swing where the government would pay about 1/4 of the cost of a new car if you qualified, and in qualifying you had to have a vehicle of a certain age that would be scrapped / recycled when you got you new car.
Something like this could be done in the US, but I doubt the auto industry is likely to give up their direct subsidies from the government for indirect subsidies to customers... But it would probably do a lot more to curb pollution than implementing ever stricter regulation on new car pollution. All the newer cars a magnitude cleaner than the old beaters without catalytic converters burning around town. We need some way to encourage people (not force, obviously) to get some kind of newer, less polluting vehicle, and these days a discount on a hybrid would REALLY make sense, given that the technology is a few thousand dollars more than conventional cars.
Here in BC if you have a car older than 92 and want to have it crushed, you get the measly option of $800 towards a new or used car, or $500 towards a new bicycle. Nobody in their right mind would be encouraged to scrap a car for chump change like that...
I mentioned that diesel cars are getting cleaner out of the box but what after about 7 years?
After 7 years, the *gasoline* car will be dirtier.
Gasoline cars age faster. Lifespan of a gasoline car is 250-300,000 miles typical. Lifespan of a diesel is 500-600,000 miles. Diesels are simpler (example: no ignition system), so there's less to go wrong. Diesels are built with stronger, thicker metals. Diesels age at a slower rate.
Quote:
the diesel manufacturers best effort is a smog nightmare banned from the road. That is saying something, in the land where the governator has a stable of hummers.
(1) The diesel makers did *not* give their "best" efforts. They have not installed the NOx/PM filters that would convert diesels from TLEV to ULEV.
(2) Hummer Diesels are legal in California! It's been a while since I lat checked, but I remember seeing a "ULEV" rating on them.
troy
Last edited by ElectricTroy; 06-24-2005 at 01:42 AM.
I would be willing to bet diesels can be fine tuned as generator sets, making much less pollution at a constant speed, and never having to be stressed out during fast accelerations. This would necessitate having a fully electric drivetrain, but at this point that's more than doable... the main thing holding EVs back is the source of energy, and a small, efficient diesel "generator" would work very well, and because of it's characteristics of just being a generator it can be tuned (or de-tuned, however you look at it) to produce less pollution because it's full potential is not needed.
I would also like to see some actual statistical data on diesel engines lasting longer than gasoline. It does make sense, in general, but I think a lot of that data could be rather skewed because of the large number of diesel engines in use in highly maintained, large fleet vehicles, giving them quite an advantage over the gasoline fleet of mostly individual consumers. The statistics should be limited in scope to reflect the same category of driver, and vehicle maintenance. I've seen plenty of older diesels in absolutely horrible shape belching out plenty of soot upon "acceleration" if you could call it that. But that doesn't make it statistics, I would like to see some real data on this "fact" so that the fact can be verified.
When I visited France they had a program in full swing where the government would pay about 1/4 of the cost of a new car if you qualified, and in qualifying you had to have a vehicle of a certain age that would be scrapped / recycled when you got you new car.
Something like this could be done in the US, but I doubt the auto industry is likely to give up their direct subsidies from the government for indirect subsidies to customers...
Are you kidding? Car-makers would *love* that program. Since old cars would be crushed, it would eliminate competiton from the Used Car market, and boost New Car sales. That program would be a win-win for new car-makers.
Still, I don't like the idea of having to raise taxes on my paycheck, so the money can be taken from me, and given to someone else to get a new car. Let that person pay for it out of their own pocket.
Also, it's a mistake to assume old = dirty. My old Dodge had 300,000 miles on it, and when it was tested, it still qualifed as a "TLEV" (transitional-low emissions vehicle). A car will remain quite clean if it's properly mainted.
I think our current solution is best:
- test cars
- dirty cars can no longer drive
- go buy a used but still-clean car for ~$2000
& most importantly:
- doesn't involved stealing money from 1 person & giving to another
Lifespan of a diesel is 500-600,000 miles...Diesels age at a slower rate.
The question here is lifespan/age of a diesel what? 18 Wheelers perhaps but not cars. Since this is a automotive site I assume you are referring to general lifespan of diesel cars.
Because I can't find any evidence of this anywhere I can only assume that it is nothing more than a popular myth.
Doing a search at a leading used car resource http://www.autotrader.com I did a general nation-wide search on all VW cars, then clicked the mileage link on the bottom to list cars with highest mileage first. It showed:
1 car over 450K miles
1 car over 200K miles
1.5 pages of cars with over 100K miles, the rest under 100K miles.
An identical Honda search shows:
7 cars over 250K miles
1.5 pages of cars over 200K miles
14 pages of cars over 100K miles.
Toyota:
2 cars over 250K miles
1 page over 200K miles
17 pages pages over 100K.
Toyota and Honda produce alot more cars than VW but it would take up to 50 years for an average driver to travel 500-600K miles and these super-lasting cars would overwhelm the remaining gasoline ones by this time. That hasn't happened.
I'm sure you could find a few exceptions of longer lasting cars on both sides but not average by a long shot.
I also could not find any evidence that the average diesel auto engine lasts that long. Used car listings show about equal.
Quote:
Diesels are simpler (example: no ignition system), so there's less to go wrong.
Diesels don't have electronic ignition and spark plugs but don't they have glow plugs and mechanical turbo chargers and other propriety devices?
Last edited by Hot_Georgia_2004; 06-24-2005 at 11:43 AM.
Reason: Type-o
Diesels don't have electronic ignition and spark plugs but don't they have glow plugs and mechanical turbo chargers and other propriety devices?
Good point. Diesels *used* to be simpler than gasoline, but they have become more complicated during the last 10 years. I suppose overall complexity of a *modern* diesel car is about equal to a gasoline. The diesel has a simpler ignition system (none), but more complex back-end (turbo, NOx filters, PM burner).
(aside: glow plugs are only used during winter, for the first ~30 seconds..... they have no affect on emissions..... whereas a dirty spark plug in a gasser would create dirtier exhaust)
I still don't buy the original poster's claim (paraphrased) - "Diesels become dirtier faster than gasoline cars." I don't see any evidence that a diesel engine would fall out of spec faster than a gasoline car.
I think our current solution is best:
- test cars
- dirty cars can no longer drive
- go buy a used but still-clean car for ~$2000
& most importantly:
- doesn't involved stealing money from 1 person & giving to another
Quite a few places have these regulations, and basically they can be circumvented pretty easily. The reality is that in order for these systems to be truly effective there needs to be an equal amount of enforcement via smog-radar type setups. That gets pretty costly.
If the US government would stop bombing the crap out of these already impoverished countries with "smart" uranium bombs costing an arm and a leg there would be billions of dollars available to put into programs to get the old gass-guzzling, pollution belching vehicles off the road, and quite possibly stimulate the sagging economy. Taxes would not have to be raised, in fact they could be lowered since military spending is so absurdly high at this time, simply to have access to cheap foreign oil. The threat of terrorism would go down, since less people would be killed by US soldiers in the name of "freedom", even the idiots planning the wars of terrorism admit to this.
I admit, the situation does not seem likely at all, but that does not make it impossible. The act of stealing from it's citizens is already happening, right now those billions are flowing into the pockets of the industry owners whom have military contracts, personally I think Americans have had enough of that BS and would much rather see their money spent on more important issues, like reducing dependence on the foreign oil, plus a reduction in the rate of taxation, especially during an economic depression.
I think our current solution is best:
- test cars
- dirty cars can no longer drive
- go buy a used but still-clean car for ~$2000
& most importantly:
- doesn't involved stealing money from 1 person & giving to another
I beleive we think alike in many matters.
The one good thing I do like about diesel is the possability of biodiesel.
Re: How dirty are diesel cars?
