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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2007, 09:13 PM
Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Aaron
Hybrids: none yet
Posts: 11
Default Hybrid challenge to all

Here's something I have been pondering for quite a few years now and noone has touched it:

Diesel-Electric (hybrid) Heavy Trucks (semi-trailer trucks, rigs, etc.)

The standard class of heavy trucks today are the biggest oil burners in our inventory, and are allowed to operate the dirtiest. What are we most concerned with? The environment? Fuel Usage?

To wit: The standard semi-trailer truck is fortunate to achieve 6-8mpg with a light load and a seasoned veteran at the wheel (on the open road unhindered by traffic concerns). They HAVE TO OPERATE approximately 100,000 miles a YEAR in order to turn a profit and earn a decent living.

Why then, are we most concerned at replacing small vehicles that are perfectly capable of yielding 35-40mpg on standard ICE (internal combustion engine) burning regular unleaded fuel, and with little pollution?

The facts of this could be made far more clear. I am, at the best, an engineering layman - I lack a degree in the field. I suppose I could tout my prowess at engineering, but why? There are career engineers out there who could address any of this with concern and knowledge. I am a college educated electrician with a firm understanding of electric motors and controls. There are a few key principles that I understand fluently.

1) Heavy trucks are HEAVY *grin* and most of the power used by these vehicles is simply getting a large load moving.

2) Heavy trucks operate more miles in a year than most of our ICE vehicles in their lifetime.

3) Heavy trucks are NECESSARY thanks to our nations disregard for our freight demands and passenger movement.

4) Heavy trucks are EFFICIENT when they are best optimized. i.e. efficient bus routes for commuters, truck routes for freight, etc.

5) Heavy trucks are POLLUTING because of the ignorance to them the current standards have.

If we look at the most impact, picture this - Heavy Trucks provide a necessary commodity, freight. We need it to grow and maintain a strong nation and growing economy. And if a hybrid diesel-electric tractor were available tomorrow, it would put no driver out of work, it would operate far more efficiently (and quietly) and would put the driver far ahead in terms of profitability.

Here's the basics, as I'm great at those :-)

Electric motors of almost any design and efficiency have the most power from a dead stop (called "locked rotor"). Electric motors can be optimized to run from 0rpm to any reasonable and efficient maximum rpm.

Electronic speed controls, high efficiency motors and other advancements in recent years have only made this possibility more feasible.

Herein lies the secret behind the diesel-electric locomotive, and the mining-class heavy ore hauler truck (those big beasts you see on large excavation projects).

For that matter, Volvo is one of the biggest producers of this type of powertrain (for truck use) and I will be contacting them regarding an OTR (over the road) truck built on this premise.

Heavy trucks are made heavy because of the extremely large (14 liter or more) diesel engine that powers them to move the load. These engines have advanced some, but like the piston engine, they have been severely out-dated for 50 years. Add to that the transmission (usually up to 18 speed) to optimize the narrow powerband these large engines have (700 to 2000 rpm typically) and you have more weight than a 10mpg SUV and we haven't yet described the truck to safely harness that power.

I have yet to read or witness one incidence that has sought to replace these with a small diesel or gas run V8 and an electric powertrain. It can be done, as anything we set out to accomplish can, and the technology is already in use - we just need to apply it in this area.

I am largely amazed that Mercedes Benz, aka Freightliner - soon to be called Daimler Truck, has yet to address this issue. And Volvo totally stumps me, as they currently produce a drivetrain for their mining-class trucks identical to what I have described - just in a larger application.

We have noone to blame but ourselves, and everything to gain for our future. Efficient freight transport, less noise and pollution on the highways, and more oil for the rest of use to utilize far more efficiently.

To me, an engineering layman, it sounds far more lucrative than a hydrogen powered BMW 7-series (BMW shame on you - wasting your time and our hard-earned dollars).

Please offer your input, as you seem to be an educated and goal-focused crowd. I count on and welcome your input and maybe a difference can be made in our collective future.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2007, 10:08 PM
Active Enthusiast
 
Location: CA
Posts: 67
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

Here in Los Angeles, many trucks are 10+ years old, privately owned by drivers who get paid very little per container. They can't afford to upgrade to a newer, cleaner truck, so tougher new vehicle emissions standards won't do much to reduce our air pollution or greenhouse gases.

Trucking companies should purchase their own trucks and hire drivers by the hour. The current system puts too much pressure on independent drivers, who try to move as many containers as possible, rush, work too many hours, and ultimately crash.

.



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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2007, 10:11 PM
Think green.
 
Location: New England
Hybrids: 2004 HCH
Posts: 232
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

About the only trucks I've heard any mention of going hybrid so far have been FedEx trucks, garbage trucks, and small delivery trucks. I guess they've said it's very expensive technology, and recently I read that FedEx was looking to get help with the costs (gov't subsidies, I think). I don't know if there's anything about truck highway driving that doesn't "work well" with the concept of hybridization, but the applications that they seem to be thinking about doing so far seem to deal with trucks that usually go at slower speeds with a lot of stop-and-go driving. Of course, there are already fleets of GM hybrid buses around, so the technology of hybridizing a large heavy vehicle has been put to use in that instance.
If there's a reason why trucks on highways are more difficult to fit into this use of hybrid technology, maybe we should also focus on making sure the freight railroads are well maintained and the routes are utilized better so that more products can be moved long distances by train. Not that I want to see truck drivers lose jobs; there would still be the need to truck the products from their end rail destination to stores, etcetera. Then the use of the above-mentioned hybrid trucks would apply.
Again, I know diddly about engineering and the technology of making hybrid trucks.
Just thinking.

.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Last edited by Gairwyn; 12-17-2007 at 10:13 PM.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2007, 02:02 AM
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Real Name: John
Hybrids: Honda Civic Hybrid
Posts: 12
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

The new deisel engine with the particulate filters in the exhuast are putting out cleaner air than they are taking in when they are in the big city with smog problems. The hybrid issue is to keep the torque/weight ratio in a functional area it is not as simple as it seems.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2007, 02:57 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first
 
Real Name: Bob
Location: Huntsville, AL
Hybrids: Prius Classic 03
Posts: 5,035
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

Where are the diesels in:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

23/32 - Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec
15/20 - Volkswagen Touareg

Here are the hybrids:

48/45 - Toyota Prius
20/22 - Lexus LS 600h L

Bob Wilson

.

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My
other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2007, 01:18 PM
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Real Name: Dave
Hybrids: '05 escape hybrid 4x4
Posts: 43
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

This is an interesting Gizmodo Article on this very subject:
Gizmodo: Hybrid Engines Make it to 18 Wheelers

One more from Pure green cars:
Pure Green Cars Article

“During steady driving conditions above 30 mph, the T270 hybrid operates like a standard diesel vehicle with all power coming from the engine,” said Mike Dozier, Kenworth chief engineer. “Below 30 mph, it uses a combination of diesel and electricity. The system automatically switches between the two modes of operation and is seamless to the driver.”

The goal for the T270 hybrid is to improve fuel economy by 30% in start-and-stop applications, such as utility trucks and pick-up and delivery. “The more stop-and-go in the application, the better the truck’s performance,”
said Dozier.

Ok, one more about mitsubishi's offering:
Canter Eco Hybrid

Last edited by dcarp; 12-18-2007 at 01:26 PM.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2007, 01:29 PM
Enthusiast
 
Hybrids: Ford Escape Hybrid 2006 2WD Loaded
Posts: 3
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

Diesel Hybrid (Electric or Hydrulic) heavy trucks ARE in development and limited use.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...unches-he.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...t_seeks_t.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...ew-150-kw.html
http://www.peterbilt.com/index_new_mor.asp?file=2093
Etc...

I would like to see more Diesel Hybrids in the consumer car / truck market, but the higher cost of a diesel engine combined with the higher cost of the hybrid components tends to price them out of competition in most cases. They generally have worse emissions although that is improving at an impressive rate. They also generally get better mileage which is a double edged sword. It makes them more attractive for lower mpg but also reduces the return on investment of assisting them with hybrid technology etc.

If the rate of inprevements in Diesels continues to improve at a faster rate than gasoline engines (as they seems to have done for a few years) and the price comes down closer to gasoline engines (as it may with increased volumes) then Diesel hybrids may eventually surpass gasoline hybrids in the consumer market
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2007, 02:18 PM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first
 
Real Name: Bob
Location: Huntsville, AL
Hybrids: Prius Classic 03
Posts: 5,035
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

If we're going to speculate then put a clean diesel in a Volt:
  • 40 hp - the power needed for cruise a Prius-class, 5 seater at 85 miles per hour
  • turbo-charger - this lets a smaller diesel handled higher power without a lot of extra weight
  • adjustable battery threshold - let driver select at what threshold the diesel begins running
A 40 hp diesel could drive a Prius class vehicle at 85 miles per hour (135 km/hr) all day long. Any slower speeds it would cycle as needed to preserve the battery charge. At 80 miles per hour, the battery could build up enough reserve to handle short bursts to 100+ miles per hour or respectable hills at speed. Also, since there is no shaft issue, look at a radial laying flat.

The turbo-charger lets a smaller block (and weight) diesel perform like a larger displacement unit. Since the diesel throttle is computer controlled, there is no need for fancy turbo tricks. Just tune the turbo for peak power and be done with it. Europeans might want a larger ICE, say 55 hp to cruise at 95 miles per hour (150 km/hr).

The driver selectable battery threshold lets them choose between deep discharge, high efficiency, or shallow discharge, more battery performance reserve. A driver choice, they will quickly find the setting that meets their needs. Personally, I would want a dial between the min and max values.

But none of this matters if the two-mode doesn't show up soon.

Bob Wilson

.

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My
other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Last edited by bwilson4web; 12-18-2007 at 02:21 PM.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Active Enthusiast
 
Location: CA
Posts: 67
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

Then there's always hydraulic launch assist. The upcoming '09 F-150 is rumored to have it. Wonder how it'll compare with the dual-modes in the Silverado.

.



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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2007, 12:58 PM
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Real Name: Dave
Hybrids: '05 escape hybrid 4x4
Posts: 43
Default Re: Hybrid challenge to all

Bwilson--you used a new term I'm not familiar with--"Prius-class". I assume that means a vehicle that's the size/shape/output of a Prius...correct? Where does my FEH fit in the class scale?
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