I was wondering, why do hybrids need such a large gasoline engine?
I remember a story from the Orange County Register Newspaper (CA) in the late '70s about a guy who designed and built a successful hybrid. In fact, if I remember correctly he sold quite a few. My father claims the paper later said that he sold his technology to Ford.
He retrofitted Plymouth Arrow bodies/chassis with a small gasoline engine and an electric motor/generator from the aircraft industry.
The electric motor provide the vehicle's propulsion.
The small gasoline engine and electric generator kept the batteries charged when plugging in was not possible.
It had unlimited range and the MPG was well over 100.
Why not use an electric generator style setup such as sold for home use to keep the batteries charged. Seems like it would use a lot less fuel than what we see in typical industry hybrids today, right?
I think this is the direction GM is going with the Volt right?
Of course the Volt will be something around 30,000+ Below that I guess its to expensive to run a sole electric motor for power?
An electric car still needs batteries, unless you plan on running a generator inside the hood alongside it. The cost of those batteries, their cooling, and their reliability is what keeps electric cars fairly costly compared to the entry level hybrids.
My guess is that Ford buried the design for two reasons:
-- They are in cahoots with Big Oil.
-- Serial hybrids put less strain on the gasoline engine, which means Ford would be selling a new car every 7-8 years instead of every 3-4 years to each customer.
This setup has worked decades in locomotives. They run on huge batteries and use diesel engines to recharge them. And they have lots of torque and towing capacity.
Lest you think that electric cars are something new, note that electric cars existed 100 years ago. The industry simply chose to make the internal combustion engine its standard because they were convinced that the supply of oil in the United States was limitless, and would suffice for our needs forever.
Compare a tiny, noisy gasoline engine from 1907 to today's engines (some of them put out 100 HP per litre), and imagine how efficient electric cars would be now, if someone had chosen to put a century of research and development into them, instead of i.c. engines.
Picture everyone driving around in today's cars and trucks, only with zero emissions. Then picture a complete absence of gas stations -- no need for them, since you just recharge your car at home. Then picture a complete absence of OPEC, oil refineries, oil tanker ships, etc., and the absence of paying $100/bbl for a commodity which generates huge profits for people who want to kill us.
This setup has worked decades in locomotives. They run on huge batteries and use diesel engines to recharge them. And they have lots of torque and towing capacity.
They do not need large traction batteries, The diesel generator puts out the required peak energy.
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Lest you think that electric cars are something new, note that electric cars existed 100 years ago. The industry simply chose to make the internal combustion engine its standard because they were convinced that the supply of oil in the United States was limitless, and would suffice for our needs forever.
Actually, the electric cars of the early 20th century were equivalent to the metro EVs that are available today (limited range and top speed). That relegated them to a niche market that didn't generate profit so they went out of production.
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Compare a tiny, noisy gasoline engine from 1907 to today's engines (some of them put out 100 HP per litre), and imagine how efficient electric cars would be now, if someone had chosen to put a century of research and development into them, instead of i.c. engines.
Perhaps battery and power electronics progress would have been accelerated, but since batteries and power electronics have many other uses, I doubt that it would be significant.
Quote:
Picture everyone driving around in today's cars and trucks, only with zero emissions. Then picture a complete absence of gas stations -- no need for them, since you just recharge your car at home. Then picture a complete absence of OPEC, oil refineries, oil tanker ships, etc., and the absence of paying $100/bbl for a commodity which generates huge profits for people who want to kill us.
How does that sound?
Like you don't know anything about the process of technology advancement or economics.
I too wish for a practical electric car (perhaps with a chemical energy source for added range) as promised by GM in the Volt. If not for the misuse of the original Ovonics NiMh patent rights by GM/Exxon we would have practical EVs now based on the proven effective "Large Format" NiMh Panasonic battery. As it is we may have to wait till 2015 when the Ovonics patent expires (unless there is a sudden advancement in the economics and performance of Lithium-based batteries).
JeffD
Last edited by jdenenberg; 12-19-2007 at 06:19 AM.
Reason: Typo
And just to continue the conspiracy theorys:
1. GM sold their shares in Ovonics.
2. I would be very surprised if the Volt is ever put into production. It appears to be a marketing exercise, not an engineering one. You don't advertise or talk publicly about your new models. The competition can use that information.
Two more reasons why GM is facing bankruptcy.
Back to the original topic.
The Prius (and most of the other more efficient hybrids) do use a "small" engine. In the Prius it's a 1500cc engine using the Atkinson cycle. Puts out 70 HP. That's a small engine for a 3000 lb car. The design could be "enhanced" by increasing the battery capacity, and Toyota is working on that. The Civic uses a slightly larger engine, and suffers slightly in fuel economy because of it. The Camry and Altima use a larger still engine, and suffer even more in fuel economy. Then there is the other side of hybrids - the Lexus 600h type design, where the hybrid power plant gives you incredible power yet a very quiet and smooth system (something you don't normally get with powerful cars, even luxury ones).
Pearl is a
2007 Driftwood Pearl Prius
Package "B" (everything but leather, nav, and rear camera)
Last edited by David Beale; 12-19-2007 at 07:47 AM.
They do not need large traction batteries, The diesel generator puts out the required peak energy. . . .
The problem is an engine sized for "peak energy" is 2-3 times larger than an engine sized for the sustained energy demand. So what the electric (or hydraulic) energy storage system does is allow use of a smaller engine sized and optimized for the actual energy demand. This avoids the overhead energy cost of moving larger mechanical parts at partial power.
The second advantage of a larger battery pack is even in a light-weight, limited distance, electric mode, the shortest trips can be taken without paying the "warm-up" cost of the engine. Given my daily commute each way is 10 miles, a 40 mile range EV with an engine range extender could cut my commuting cost price in half. In effect the combined electric-engine vehicles becomes the ultimate flex-fuel vehicle that can run using 'coal', 'nuclear' or 'hydro' power. A diesel (or any ICE) only vehicle will never achieve that degree of fuel flexibility.
Of course the real question is "where is the two-mode" hybrid? The Maryland factory has been making transmissions for almost two months and no vehicles at the dealers. I can't worry about an EV1 that is at least two years out if the 'low hanging fruit' isn't "real."
Maybe the earlier versions, but the later ones use a 1.3L engine which, unless I forgot how to do math, is less than 1.5L
The civic tends to get worse mileage in city driving because of its inability to run solely on electric power, like the prius can. However, out on the open highway, the civic matches--and even beats--the prius in FE.
The reason your small engine and motor generator solution is impractical is due to basic physics. Around town with lots of time at stoplights to charge the batteries it might perform fairly well, but as for unlimited range, suppose you are going to Reno from San Francisco.
After a short while at highway speeds , your batteries will be depleted. All you have then is the little engine, minus the losses of converting torque to electricity and back to torque. Its uphill much of the way. How slow are you willing to go? The more dead batteries you are carrying around, the slower it will be. The traffic on I-80 is not going to like you going 20 miles per hour.
Congress has just passed a law that will require 35mpg average in a few years. They are patting themselves on the back and conveniently forgetting that Newton's law will prevail, and that cars are going to have to change drastically to achieve this goal. Because the mileage requirement is averaged over the whole fleet, the Camry will be a large car, and the few comfortable, Highlander style SUVs, that are built will not be available at prices we can afford.
Hybrid Design---Why Won't This Work
