I was reading through that thread in this same forum about the top 10 green cars according to the LA times and I found it curious that the MINI was on there. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but what is the distinction between hybrid and green, and is a hybrid car automatically better?

Put it another way, if we are strictly taking in terms of carbon footprint is it better to go with a non-hybrid car that gets better mileage or a hybrid car regardless of the mileage? Is mileage immediately linked to emissions?

Again, sorry if this has been asked before.

If you visit this website link:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/findacar.htm

you can look up different car models and compare both their mpg ratings and their carbon footprint.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/m.../car/5679.html

It is a fine question and you may have noticed that we're pretty tolerant of non-hybrid success too. In fact, one of the Toyota SAE papers had a chart showing some cases were a non-hybrid with a manual transmission could achieve Prius like mileage. Those are successes on the MPG front but I have a wife whose knees preclude a manual transmission vehicle.

I'm a firm believer in the "right tool for the right job" and sometimes that may be a hybrid and sometimes something else. But we are a little skeptical of non-hybrid claims that are not backed up by solid engineering data.

If someone has a lot of high-speed, highway travel, a hybrid may not be their best answer. But if someone has a lot of start/stop driving, like a taxi, it is hard to beat a hybrid. Just get the right tool for the right job.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

A higher-MPG vehicle will always emit less CO2. In terms of pollutant emissions the relationship is less direct.

The catalytic converter system is the central feature. Without that (i.e., pre-1975 vehicles) high fuel economy was possible along with huge emissions of oxides of nitrogen and carbon monoxide. On the other hand, do the catalysts right and you can have very cleam exhaust but still less than 20 MPG.

The current US pollutant rating syste for vehicles is simple to understand. More subtle is the fact that there is very little difference in the upper half of the ratings. Even middle scores are not that much worse than the best. This may sound somewhat heretical, and certainly not pro-hybrid. But the worst polluting vehicles by far are the oldest ones in the fleet. Someday we'll wise up and not allow them to be driven in urban areas at all. But not today.

DAS

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'm a bit of a neophyte to this stuff and I don't want to be one of those people who jumps on an environmental fad and then doesn't do their homework (ie, buying a hybrid just because it's a hybrid). Not that I'm condescending to such individuals necessarily but there are also a lot of car manufacturers looking to cash in and I know there's a range of quality (as with most things). Looks like I've got a lot of research ahead of me...

The bottom line is to go for the highest MPG vehicle that suits you and where you drive. A 40 MPG gasoline smart would be better in a normal or typical driving cycle than a 32 MPG GM Hybrid, certainly in its "ownership period" footprint. Do you need a four seater? Do you want a convertible that gets good MPG? You get the idea.

For the car's "manufacturing footprint", there may be some sources to compare them (the haters always point to hybrid battery materials), and if any legitimate differences in the footprint of the materials used to make the car and the factory's environmental status are found, adjustments could be made for comparative purposes.

For example, my diesel smart gets 60 MPG but it would have about the same CO2 footprint as a gasoline-engined car that averages about 53 or 54 MPG, due to diesel fuel being more dense and creating more combustion by-products per volume burned.

2008 Mercedes-Benz B 200
2005 smart fortwo cdi pulse cabriolet
1966 Peugeot 404 Coupé Injection
1989 Peugeot 405 DL

Choosing the right tool for the right job is not always easy. One technique I use is to list my requirements, a free association data-dump. Then having listed the requirements, which may take a day or so, rank them. Now you have a road map.

I like to put the requirements into a spreadsheet as rows and then use the columns to list each of the likely candidates. Evaluate each candidate as to how well they meet the requirements. This is not a "zero sum game" so don't worry about 'being fair.' Fair is how you call them, not what someone else claims.

Now some of the areas you may not feel comfortable that you've given a fair score. In those cases, feel free to ask subject matter experts. We might not have the same answers but in the discussion we can help fill in some of the blanks.

Bob Wilson

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

I think the concept of a hybrid is pretty well understood. But the definition of "green" can take many forms. Green is most widely used to define products friendly to the environment. However, some limit green to only greenhouse gases (CO2). On the flipside I have seen articles referring to "the greenest car" as the car made with the highest content of recyclable parts, therefore not ending up in a landfill. Europe seems to focus primarily on greenhouse gases. So some of the "greenest" cars in Europe have NOx levels that prevent their sale in the US. Lastly, cars that have had their ICE replaced with electric motors and batteries are commonly referred to as green. Although these cars are commonly made with environmentally unfriendly batteries, that will have much shorter lives than batteries in hybrid cars. And require charging from household electricity which may be directly correlate to increased electrical production and therefore greater power plant emissions.

My state doesn't perform any emissions checks on cars. I always get a kick out of the hippie lady driving a 10+ year old toyota/honda station wagon that burns a qrt of oil a month and plastered with PBS, Go Green, W suxs, etc stickers. As she drives the check engine light illuminates her face. Yet she will glare, shaking her finger at someone driving a late model SUV. Hopefully the hippie lady will trade in on a TPH so she will no longer be a hypocrite.

My point is that "green" is in the opinion of the beholder.

No car is "green" unless it's painted that colour. They are all very hard on the environment. Certain hybrids are just less hard.

Let's talk emissions. Motorweek did a comparison test last year of the four "types" of cars you can buy in the US - diesels, hybrids, E85 burners, and "normal" gasoline powered vehicles.
To keep the test fair they only used vehicles manufactured in "both" versions, so:
Mercedes V6 gas and V6 diesel, same model.
Honda Civic and Civic Hybrid.
GMC Yukon flexfuel run on E85 and "normal" gasoline.
GMC Yukon 2 mode hybrid.

They used advanced instruments to measure emissions on the road, including CO2.

The hybrid Civic had the lowest emissions, both CO2 and other, much lower "other". It also had the lowest cost per mile. They calculated payback of the "hybrid premium" at 3 years. (Why don't we ever hear of a "diesel premium?")
The Yukon, when run on E85, had the highest cost per mile and the highest CO2 output per mile.
The diesel Mercedes was second in the CO2 output category, and had very high "other" emissions. Even though it was a "bluetec" car.

I'm sure the results are on line at the PBS site, if anyone wants to check my memory.

Pearl is a
2007 Driftwood Pearl Prius
Package "B" (everything but leather, nav, and rear camera)

I forgot that one, guess that makes my first car "green", neon green, gotta love the 70s.

I recall the Motorweek show but couldn't remember the details, and only Google's cache does.
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:Tea8Ha5wyW0J:www.pbs.org/motorweek/....

They only ran the emissions on the Civic and Tahoe. The Bluetec MB costs $1000 more than the standard E350 and returned 32 MPG versus 26 in their test loop. Even with the premium for diesel gas they estimated $350 yr savings. There were two positive surprises: the impact the 2M hybrid has on the Tahoe's emissions and the already especially low emissions of the non-hybrid Civic. And surprisingly the word "green" was only used 2 times in the article.