So I didn't know that you can buy hydrogen fuel cells, mass produced, today. They are for low drain applications, like video camera and other technology, but they are available now. How 'bout that? Check it out:

http://www.jadoopower.com/

Not just Super White...Super Duper White...

N-Gen™
Weight: 5.1 lb (excludes N-Stor)
Size: 4.3 (w) x 4.3 (d) x 7.4 (h) in
Output: 12 VDC Nominal
Wattage: 100 W Continuous
Operating Range: 35-100°F, 10-100% RH
$999.00

N-Stor130
Capacity: 130W-h
Weight: 2 lb
Size: 2.5 (dia) x 4.5 (h) in
$449.00

N-Stor360
Capacity: 360 W-h
Weight: 5.1 lb
Size: 2.5 (dia) x 10.5 (h) in
$849.00

FillPoint™
Multi-port, high-performance refill station designed specifically for high-volume enterprise user groups. Refills four N-Stor130 Fuel Canisters simultaneously in less than one hour.
$1799.00

FillOne™
Portable, single-port refill station for mobile or independent users. Can be powered directly by a 12 VDC power source.
$599.00

None for me, thank you. Too little power and too pricy. When it gets closer to $1/watt, let me know.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

By far and away, the potentially most effective use for the hydrogen fuel cell is as a home furnace / power generator / hot water generator. This would be far more economical then the fuel cell car nutball idea, since weight & size is not a problem, a much smaller fuel cell is needed, i.e. a 1.5 kw fuel cell (at least a 15 kw is needed for automotive applications) would supply almost all homes heat & hot water needs, while supplying more electrical energy than they require as a free bonus, which can be dumped back into the power grid for a distributed power generation system. Also, the fuel cells could be most effectively run on natural gas with reformers, the heat from the reformers supplying hot water & building heat, size & weight not a problem. No one talks about this application, or hardly any research on the application, all on the nutty hydrogen economy fuel cell car crapola - why? Because Big Auto & Big Oil know bloody well it is a fantasy, and it's their way of pretending they are pro-environment and have some vision, meanwhile they are screwing the consumer and the environment by suppressing a proven technology that they know works superbly well, that is the all electric battery powered vehicle with optional generator.
Notice that nobody ever calls a fuel cell car an electic vehicle (which it is) or a series hybrid (which it is), its always called a fuel cell vehicle. Doesn't it make sense that maybe you should develop the electric vehicle / series hybrid first, then you could easily add a fuel cell as the generator if you can bring the cost down from $800,000, for an average vehicle, and come up with a reasonable way to produce and distribute hydrogen that isn't less than 50% efficient. It's not happening.

Question: Why are oil companies strong proponents of the fuel cell?
Answer: So Oil Companies will always have fuel to sell.

This is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

To make the hydrogen in the first place you have to throw away ~50% of the energy present in the electricity / natural gas. Then there is compression and transportation, not to mention a vastly expensive infrastructure and of course the cost of the home fuel cell itself. If using the fuel cell to make electricity for the home, you only get 20% (yes, 20%) of the original energy back out that you put in to make the hydrogen.

Why bother with any of that?

Just use the electricity directly for heating / power / hot water. Trying to squeeze in a use for hydrogen in any part of this is just crazy.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

In Japan, we have seen the fuel cell cogeneration system at home since 2004.
http://www.tokyo-gas.co.jp/Press_e/20041206-2e.pdf
It's efficiency is total 71% or more.
http://www.tokyo-gas.co.jp/pefc_e/dev-fc_21.html

Ken@Japan

Hi Ken, the home fuel cell you mention does not burn hydrogen but city gas (natural gas, methane).

The efficiency is 31% for generation of electricity and 40% for generation of heat. The high efficiency quoted is because it is assumed the household can use all of the co-generated heat.

This is totally different from using hydrogen, which takes 60 kWh to produce 1kg of hydrogen, while 1kg of hydrogen produces 12 kWh of electricity when burnt in a fuel cell (at peak efficiency).

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

Hi clett,
You just don't want to understand how it works.

Of course, it is based on the hydrogen fuel stack.
http://www.tokyo-gas.co.jp/pefc_e/dev-fc_32.html
The integral fuel treatment system produces hydrogen from city gas and the PEFC stack produces the electric and heat from hydrogen.

Ken@Japan

Hi Ken,

I do understand how it works - by reforming hydrogen out of the methane, just like Toyota propose doing from gasoline in some of their FCV prototypes.

But my point is that the original fuel supply of the machine is not hydrogen - if it was, its overall efficiency would be terrible. You'll notice that generation of electricity from the hydrogen is only 31% - less than a power station. The only reason they quote the efficiency as being higher is because you get the waste heat, which would otherwise be lost.

I agree that if you are going to burn methane, doing so in a way like this that uses the waste heat is better than most, but I don't think piping hydrogen to homes for use in fuel cells is viable.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

Hi Ken,

I reviewed the 2007 conference in Tokyo on fuel cell technology and of the three technical approaches, only the base power system, the molten carbonate lookes even remotely practical because of the high temperature waste heat and wide range of feed stock.

The other two approaches, polymer and phosphoric, appear to be feed-stock quality sensitive. Even the chemical reduction powered cells such as those powered by methanol, require high quality fuel to avoid 'poisioning' the cell. Then too, reducing the feedstock to generate hydrogen has built in inefficiencies which I suspect drives the $/kw out of the practical range.

I agree with research but believe it is misleading, based upon what I've been able to gather, to believe we are on the verge of a hydrogen economy. The greatest demand, mass-market, for fuel cells is in laptop computers and they are still not there. As for vehicle power, they are not even close to the show room but still just Beta copies.

In the meanwhile, I will continue my hybrid electric experiments and should have some new stuff on the road soon.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Hi clett,

You're still missing my point.

The system never burn the methane.
The integral fuel treatment does extract H2 from CH4(methane) without burning methane.

Then, we get the 31% electric energy from the methane energy(100%) plus 40% heat recovery energy from the methane energy(100%), total 71% efficiency. This is the fuel cell cogeneration system.

Please review following page again...
http://www.tokyo-gas.co.jp/pefc_e/dev-fc_32.html

Ken@Japan