"Its not that you 'need' to drive differently in a hybrid- its simply that the evidence of what you're doing is staring you in the face, which guilts you into changing. Whwen you think about it objectively, you are simply adjusting to drive the way we all should have been driving in the 1st place- rationally, within the most efficient band of operation for that method of transportation. In most normal cars there's no way to see the effects of what you're doing, and by the time you fill up and calculate the damage you can't pin it on any single thing."
My point is that if you drove a regular civic the same way that you drive a hybrid- that is, being aware of how accelerating, etc. impacts your mileage at any point in time then I believe that the milage from the non-hybrid civic may compare to that of a hybrid. With that in mind, I am not sure if mpg alone would justify the additional expense of a hybrid.
Jason said-
I am not sure I understand your 'disappointment' about needing to be aware of what you're doing. You are commanding a large, very complex piece of machinery that is one of the current pinnacles of engineering effort since the invention of the wheel. It deserves your full attention when you are in it. It should amaze you in the back of your mind every time you see it. That much capability was unthinkable even 1/2 a generation ago.
No one is debating or knocking the technology. The fact is that if most people drove a hybrid the way most people drive their non-hybrids- that is without paying so much attention to their driving patters as regards to MPG, then I am not so sure that we would be seeing our average MPG approaching that of the EPA estimates. When I get my HCH in a few weeks I am going to cover up the MPG guage with something like black electical tape, and then I will look at my mpg after going through a tank of gas. My guess is that I will see a significant decrease in mpg.
With that in mind, I believe that the guage would really be a benefit for all cars- not just hybrids.
As a side note, I am not buying my hybrid for the mpg alone... other benefits include:
-Decreased emissions
-HOV lane access
-Tax Credit
-Prime parking spots in garages (some garages in Baltimore City have spots reserved for hybrids
-A message to the oil companies
-Support for the technology and concept (the more hybrids people see, the more willing others will be to try one, and the more that people buy them the more incentive the auto manufacturers will have to spend more on R&D.)
Thanks everyone for you replies. To use Jason's words- It deserves your full attention when you are in it. It should amaze you in the back of your mind every time you see it. That much capability was unthinkable even 1/2 a generation ago. BTW, I am talking about this forum and the Internet in general.
I think you could improve mileage on a regular car if you drove it more like a hybrid.
I also agree with your point that hybrids entice drivers to drive differently. Even without going to extremes, they provide some technical means to improve your mileage, and IMHO they have a much greater potential for fuels savings - if the driver wants to take advantage of that through a given driving style.
Not thta it is a fair comparison, but in my previous MINI Cooper S, I got around 24 mpg in my then quite spirited driving style. If I tried to be extremely conservative in my style, the best I got in mixed driving was about 29 mpg, so the range is quite narrow (24-29). In my PII, if I don't do the many short trips that alas are typical for my commute and decrease my mileage, I can easily attain over 50 mpg, and in mixed driving could probably average around 55 or better (excluding short trips). If I drive in a very spirited way (hard to do in a PII I admit), mileage sinks down to 42, and I think in extreme cases could drop below 40 to, say, 38. That is a much greater span.
The bottom line for me is that hybrids are a great tool, and even if you don't take advantage of all capabilities, they will still save gas. Plus, I do believe they increase safety on the roads because IMHO hybrid drivers seem to drive in moe mellow ways.
Happy motoring!
. . . if you drove a regular civic like that I wonder how much the mpg would impove? . . .
We have an Echo and a Prius, identical 1500 cc cars. The Echo MPG improves by taking a longer route at higher speeds. The Prius MPG improves by taking a shorter route at lower speeds. But I tried the experiment with our '91 Camry.
Using two techniques, predictive braking and 'slow hill climb', I managed to go from 32 MPG to 38 MPG. But I realized that subsequent improvements would come up against one hard barrier, the energy lost in braking. It is the one aspect that separates hybrids from non-hybrids. It is why the traditional challenge to hybrid efficiency requires two special rules: (1) highway only and (2) manual transmission vs. hybrid automatic.
Your wife may someday decide that fuel efficiency is important and change her driving style. But having been married for 30 years to the same woman, my data point suggests it will take at least 30 years and counting.
My point is that if you drove a regular civic the same way that you drive a hybrid- that is, being aware of how accelerating, etc. impacts your mileage at any point in time then I believe that the milage from the non-hybrid civic may compare to that of a hybrid. With that in mind, I am not sure if mpg alone would justify the additional expense of a hybrid.
The additional expense is basically for what amounts to an option package that suits some tastes and preferences, and not others. One should not buy any vehicle based solely one of its options (but that too is a personal preference). If the hybrid benefits, in one consumers mind, are not worth the cost, then they don't buy it. Same for the DVD player, or leather, or sport package...
I think you could improve mileage on a regular car if you drove it more like a hybrid.
grrrr!!!! That is part of the perception problem of hybrids!!! That they 'have' to be driven a special way. They can be driven any way one wants to drive them- with appropriately scaled results. Same as any car, anywhere.
The focus should be, if one wants good FE, on driving whatever you have in the manner most appropriate for that vehicle. It not 'driving it like a hybrid.' For 99% of all nybrid and non-hybrid vehicles that means the same things- low RPMs, 60ish mph top speed, coasting...
One of the mods here has a 'vette that gets over 30mpg at 75mph. Because he finally gets into top gear at 75, his rpms are as low as they can get without draggin on the engine, and the engine is so large and powerful with such a small, aerodynamic vehicle that it is effectively idling. For the Corvette, THAT is the most efficient way to drive it.
When I get my HCH in a few weeks I am going to cover up the MPG guage with something like black electical tape, and then I will look at my mpg after going through a tank of gas.
The HCH2 FE gauge is a combination water temp/FE gauge. No need to cover it up, just flip it to show water temp.
I will take the advice of raising my tire pressure to 40psi; I think that will be a good compromise between ride and fuel economy. And I do try to accelerate as slowly as I feel is safe, but beyond that, we're just driving it like a regular car.
One thing that I've noticed about hybrid mileage versus standard mileage is that if driven in just about any way, a hybrid will have an adantage over an equivalent non-hybrid. If both are driven in the most economical way, the hybrid should have the greatest advantage over the non-hybrid. (I suspect in real life, hybrids are driven more economically than non-hybrids due to the mileage display) Hybrids get most of their fuel efficiency benefit from the fact that they can run a smaller engine that is less wasteful for steady cruising, and use the electric motors to match the performance of a larger engine, as well as to balance the engine RPMs and keep the engine in its efficient torque range when accelerating. A much smaller benefit comes from the fact that the engine shuts itself off, and can use regenerative braking power--this is quite the opposite of what most people think about hybrids.
With a smaller engine, you are much more sensitive to driving load. Packing a Hybrid Civic and Non-hybrid civic with gear on roof racks will push the mileage very close, and possibly even make the hybrid do worse, since the extra load will tend to push the smaller engine out of its efficient range of RPMs, while the larger engine on the Standard Civic still has power in reserve. If you respect this though, and drive in such a way as to balance engine load out more in both vehicles, the Hybrid should win out as it should be running in a more efficient powerband than the non-hybrid at most speeds (especially at the speeds where the EPA runs the fuel economy tests )
As far as acceleration and braking and situations that actually use the electric motors, I feel that the current hybrids with no hardware changes -- only software mods -- could do substantially better with a few manual controls. For one, with ones foot removed from the gas, it should be possible to coast with the valves sealed in the higest gear and no charging whatsoever -- almost as good as neutral for friction. There could be a "coast/regen" switch if peopel prefer the charging. The vehicle oculd also more vigorously balance the engine load by using the electric motors in short bursts, especailly when running cruise control.
Air conditioning load could automatically be balanced by computer as well-- running full blast when going downhill or when decelerating, and reduced when going uphill or accelerating. (I sometimes do this by hand) This is what "econ" mode should actually do.
Finally, there should be a way to set the IMA to give out assist at a faster or lower rate, so that one can save the battery going up long hills, and use it to its potential going up short ones. A few simple switches could do this. Unfortunately, since there's no mechanism to test this in the EPA cycle, there woudl be little to no advertising benefit. This is why I feel it's important for EPA cycle to reflect common driving speeds, so there will be an incentive to engineer cars to do well in those conditions.
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When I get my HCH in a few weeks I am going to cover up the MPG guage with something like black electical tape, and then I will look at my mpg after going through a tank of gas.
I actually did this a while ago, and managed to average only about 1mpg lower, but with a lot less distrtactoins and probably a faster average speed. I've pretty much gotten to the point where I can scope the mileage out based on engine sounds and feel.
Last edited by Double-Trinity; 05-16-2006 at 02:18 PM.
If one chooses to get a hybrid and continue driving as they always have, great. The hybrid will still benefit them almost every time, to some degree.
If one chooses to optimize their drving in what they have, great. They will get some % boost in mpg.
If one chooses to get a hybrid AND at least partially optimize the driving experience, that person will reap the greatest gains almost every time.
All are net positives. All are good decisions.
I never get upset at a person who makes informed choices. I get upset at those who make uninformed decisions and then are angry or confused that the results aren't panning out per their hopes. There is little excuse anymore for making uneducated decisions, or for maintaining a naive assumption that technology will cure all woes without personal changes. (This is a general statement of mine; not towards anyone in particular)
btw- about IMA tinkering...its been done. Look up "MIMA" regardng the Insight.
btw- about IMA tinkering...its been done. Look up "MIMA" regardng the Insight.
I'm aware of it, and actaully woudl be very interesting in doing such a customization on my own HCH-I. However, I personally think a simpler version of MIMA could have been implemented standard for almost no cost from the manufacturer, even something akin to the "power" and "economy" switches on some automatic transmissions would have made a difference.
Last edited by Double-Trinity; 05-16-2006 at 01:00 PM.
Good gauges help a ton for sure. The Vette has better instruments than my HCH. Having an instant MPG reading down to the tenths helps a lot. I second the vote for a Scangauge (or equivelent) in every dash!
Re: If you drove a non-hybrid like a hybrid...
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