Comments? Suggestions? Additions? Fair?

-----Original Message-----
From: Kris . . .
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:24 PM
To: Wilson, Robert J. . . .
Subject: Prius


Robert,

What's the latest in news on the Prius. I'm looking at cars again (possible impending engine failure) and thinking about the hybrids.

-----My Response-----

Hi,

It depends upon what you are after but let me run down the options:

NEW:
- Prius: excellent city, pretty good highway (50 MPG @ 70 miles per hour), up to 20 kW of hybrid electrical power, a lot of knowledge in the user community, good space in hatchback.
- Ford Escape: significant model upgrade of powertrain and internals. A good hybrid before is now better with excellent interior space, good highway and good city. American suspension, rides like a boat, the road feels like it has an inch of foam padding. If you want space and hauling around, probably one of the best deals.
- Camry Hybrid: what a boat, similar to or slightly better MPG than Ford Escape but creature comforts are outstanding. Not really a hauling stuff around car, it is a sweet ride for you, your friends, a backseat gal, and worth a test drive.
- Honda Civic Hybrid: affordable, pretty good highway (similar to Prius) and OK in city. Lack of fold down rear seat is a major screw-up but it looks fast.
- 600h + $100,000: pocket rocket in style, silent but deadly on the street but mileage nothing to shout about. Measure 0-60 is around 5 seconds, I think but who cares!!!

USED (think Ebay motors):
- 2005 Prius and later: same as the current Prius and will have 8/80,000 miles or possibly 8/100,000 miles on the battery and hybrid parts. Good deals are available but they remain sparse. Not a bad car for customizing. Measured 0-60 is 10 seconds. Avoid the 2004, the first model year, that had a number of problems mostly fixed in the following years. Excellent buy after 3/36000 warranty expires.
- 2002-2003 Prius: mine is a 2003 model and that should be chosen over the 2002 and avoid the 2001 that had (has) a lot of teething problems. You can get pretty good performance but Toyota fixed a lot of things later with the 2004-current models that gives them nearly 3 MPG more. Measured 0-60 is 13 seconds and can't really be improved except by weight reduction. Although you're not supposed to, you can fold down the rear seat back or take it out. The European and Japanese version has folding rear seats and I'm looking for an Echo wrecker to do that to mine. The 18 kW of hybrid electrical power are pretty nice and if you want to fiddle around, get into the guts, this is not a bad project car.
- Insight MT / Civic MT: not many of these are around but they can give you good value and excellent performance. However, the Insight is a two-seater and the styling 'takes getting used to.' There may be an Insight color that works but mostly, painted, they look like crap yet they have an aluminum body. Someday someone is going to strip off the paint, buff the aluminum to a mirror reflective shine and put a layer of clear coat. The hood will need something to avoid reflections blinding the driver, say a black, textured pattern Thunderbird, but in mirror quality, polished aluminum, it would look like a spaceship.

UGH UGH UGH UGH!!!!
- No form of belt-assisted hybrid should be considered in any way shape or form. . . . AVOID! AVOID! AVOID! The performance of a gas model at a premium price but it requires stopping, A LOT OF STOPPING, to gain any payback. The ideal route is one with badly timed, slow stoplights at every corner and lots and lots of intersections . . . then it would make sense if you ignored all other hybrids.
- First model year any hybrid: ONLY if you buy an extended warranty and have a spare ride and plan to trade-up before the 3/36000 mile warranty expires. Everyone's first model year has problems that are mostly fixed in the second year. If buying a used car, choose the last model year over the earlier ones.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Under NEW --> HCH:

• Inherits qualities of other Civics, like very good handling, road feel, and more passenger room in its class
• "Library quiet" engine except when you need power
• Cool and crisp standard displays
• Easy and intuitive to operate

Not thrilled that you describe the TCH as a boat - where I grew up, calling a car a boat meant that the handling was atrocious, as in it takes long wide turns, and that starting and stopping was slow and mushy.
I'm guessing you're talking more about comfort (at least, I hope so), but still...

--My hybrid came home!--
Ottawa owners check in here

Randy

The Prius no longer offers the federal tax credit. The Civic Hybrid does until the end of the year. That's a $2,100 difference in price right there.

Without the tax credit, a used hybrid looks more attractive, but the resale prices are so high that I would go with a new one, and the low finance rates. I'm paying 2.9% on my HCH.

Also, it's the end of the year, so it's bargain time for all cars, hybrids included. I believe you could get a Civic Hybrid for under $20K right now.

The main thing to consider about hybrids is the mileage driven annually. If you drive 20,000 miles or more, then a hybrid is worth the extra bucks. If less, then you're better off with a regular car.

The warranties on hybrids are non-issues. They get all the usual ones, plus extended warranties on the batteries at no extra charge (Honda's is 8 years).

I would only consider the Prius or Civic when buying a hybrid. Maybe the Escape hybrid if you absolutely NEED an SUV (which, admit it, you don't). But as for a Camry hybrid or the joke hybrids from Saturn and Chevy (the Malibu hybrid gets 2 mpg more than the regular car -- puhleaze!), they're too expensive and the fuel savings too miniscule to justify their purchase under any circumstances. Avoid them.


Good luck with the decision!

Good point! I'd bought a used Prius and tend to forget the tax advantages.

Kris is a ham radio enthusiasts and clever programmer. In the past, he has enjoyed pony cars but I suspect he is taking a more utilitarian point of view. Like most Alabamians, we're not terribly worried about 'green' stuff but we're both technologists and frugal.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

I agree with most of your comments, Bob. I'd say remove the "boat" comment on the TCH. Instead I'd say "If you want a "stealth hybrid" that is a "standard sedan" consider the TCH and NAH". They are not as efficient as a Prius or HCH but they -are- comfortable and nice to drive.

I think the "rebates" issue is a "red herring". Who cares! It's peanuts, and if that makes your decision you're easily persuaded by silly things! For example, in Canada, we have a -real- rebate program (the government sends you a cheque for the full amount if you qualify - I just got my cheque for $2000). For the HCH it's $1500, Prius $2000. But the HCH is more than $3000 less to buy than the Prius.
I consider this a "bonus" and don't use it in my decision process. It's less than 10% of the car's cost.

I chose the Prius because of the body's flexibility. I rejected the HCH (though I was tempted) just because it couldn't carry large items because I decided if I was going to get a hybrid I should also move down to only one vehicle. So it had to be flexible re use of interior space. I rejected the TCH (though again, I was tempted - it was the same cost as my Prius) because I decided if I was going to get a hybrid to be fuel efficient I was going to get the most efficient one. The TCH also is not as flexible as the Prius.

Pearl is a
2007 Driftwood Pearl Prius
Package "B" (everything but leather, nav, and rear camera)

The Prius beats the rest of them like a drum.Its only competition is the HCH II, and the Prius is faster(the HCH II is very slow),gets better mpg, is roomier(actually has Home Depot capacity),easier to get in and out of.The HCH II is tough for older folks(45+) to get in and out of.If you are a bit older this is a big deal.I'm short and I have to scrunch down to get in and out of the HCH II.
The Prius is currently being discounted.My guess is that you will have to pay $1500 more for a Prius-if they-the HCHII- still get the $2100 rebate,then the HCH II is $3500 less-a fair amount.
If you need a SUV then the newest Ford is a very good choice.It is up in mpg,and better in every respect than the 1st version.
The Prius is better,the HCH II is cheaper.If you are older, you body will appreciate the Prius.The only real downside is the rear view on the Prius(you absolutely have to turn around 180 degrees when backing up,unless you can train yourself to use,and trust,the rear camera)
Charlie

Thanks folks, just some follow-up:

• Kris is a young man in his 20s and very bright (not just because he asked me!)
• "boat" is a Southern term for a comfortable ride

He'll have to make his own choices but I wanted to give him a general road map. He'll no doubt road test the vehicles and make a decision that is best for him.

Bob Wilson

ps. I was thinking that the BAS hybrid makes most sense if someone is a rural mailman. They have a tremendous amount of stop-and-go driving and BAS could save a little fuel as they gather and drop off the mail. They also need to travel longish distances from the post office to the start and end of the route. Finally, they often deal with secondary and unpaved roads so one of the SUV-lite styles with high center clearance would work. The BAS is not better than say the Ford Escape hybrid but rather, here is a driving profile that has the number of stops needed to make sense for a BAS vehicle.

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Sorry David.

Not that it matters much, but like the Prius, the HCH gets $2000 from the ecoAuto program, not $1500.

If you can get a base Prius in my province for less than $32,000 then I call you a lucky man indeed. You can get an HCH for $27,000 even when you are in a 45 day waiting list and that means that the difference between the HCH and the Prius is often way over $5,000. In fact, even more if you want to get a Prius with side curtain airbags (staring at package B if I am correct).

Cheers;

MSantos

Bob,
I was surprised by the "not so hot in the city" comment for the Civic. May be true when compared to the Prius, but I and others can easily meet or exceed the EPA city rating on average. And the GH database shows the Prius II and HCH II within one mpg of each other.