Honestly, it doesn't sound worth it. Why wade your way into a bash-fest just to take a little extra punishment? I mean, if you really think there's a chance of having rational or civil discussion, then great, get in there and fight for your team! But given your description, I'd guess the odds of that are slim.

Many people who bash the environmental movement seem to have a very narrow idea of what the environmental movement is, but they are expansive in generalizing that idea to any 'green' ideas they come across.

For instance, one thing I often hear is people who say that environmentalists care more about keeping animals alive than people, -- they're generalizing from the 'saving-spotted-owl-habitat-put-a-lumbermill-out-of-business' moment in the environmental movement history to these ridiculous scenarios where my driving a hybrid is going to deny life-saving healthcare to the children of poor, working-class Americans who are deprived by the man and can't get a break. Someone tell me how to respond to an attack of that nature! I mean, it's hard to really engage with some of it, it's so far-fetched.

Good show!

Nevertheless, it's your good words that are needed in places like that. I feel there are lot of others out there who, if they see the interaction, will jump on our side. There are some sane people there but are drowned out by the facists and closed-minded.

You have some good things to say...don't just say them here...get out there and kick some ***.

Originally, I was going to post that they pay the price of their opinions at the pump . . . like chastity, such foolishness is its own reward (or punishment.) As I started to type ". . . and I have no interest," in a Gestalt moment, I deleted it. And then I noticed this tread had a 'life of its own.'

Along with this I would add that sometimes, some of the marginal ones, will decide to 'return the favor.' Lord love a duck but we have had just the right number of trolls and flame-baiters show up from time-to-time. We don't need to encourage them.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

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Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Good points - everybody.

I have not gone there - been busy.

I'll just take the best of my hybrid apologist posts and not invest much time in it.

They can bait like a foaming, rabid madog, but they can't change the fact my Insight has a lifetime mpg of 59.4 over 115,000 miles, but the last couple of years I get 70mpg in the winter - 75 in the summer. To top it off, it's the most reliable car of the seven I've had. No flamer can change that.

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

Best Run >
www.cleanmpg.com

"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

I can't say that I blame any of you for not wanting to get involved. But the ignorance about global warming, etc...is astounding.

I mean just look at this thread from the same website...the OP appears to have a trend of being closed-minded and number spewing...but just doesn't seem to get the big picture.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2942104

To believe that greenhouse gas emissions are irrelevant from cars is just ludicrous. And the ad-hominen attacks on the sudden concern regarding Hybrid battery production and disposable issues....as if the huge waste and production waste from regular cars wasn't an issue?

You have to love their selective love for the environmental issues regarding hybrid cars...it's a real laugh.

Everyone brings a different mix to the forum and I've grown fond of:

Hybrid owners are: (1) greenie, (2) techie, or (3) cheapie . . . pick two.

I'm #2 and #3 but acknowledge some passing interest in #1. So my take on it is this:

Global warming models predict a substantial loss of frozen water, which has already been demonstrated with the glacial retreats. There is evidence that arctic, Greenland and antarctic ice sheets are getting smaller and becoming unstable. The natural result is a rise in sea level where a substantial percentage of the world's population lives. If we see a precipitous rise in sea level, the deniers will have another problem to deal with . . . either their own relocation or the coastal population relocation. But this reminds me of King Canute:

http://www.inspirationalstories.com/0/91.html

. . .
"Bring it closer to the sea," Canute called. "Put it right here, right at the water's edge." He sat down and surveyed the ocean before him. "I notice the tide is coming in. Do you think it will stop if I give the command?"

His officers were puzzled, but they did not dare say no. "Give the order, O great king, and it will obey," one of then assured him.

"Very well. Sea," cried Canute, "I command you to come no further! Waves, stop your rolling!. Surf, stop your pounding! Do not dare touch my feet!"

He waited a moment, quietly, and a tiny wave rushed up the sand and lapped at his feet.

"How dare you!" Canute shouted. "Ocean, turn back now! I have ordered you to retreat before me, and now you must obey! Go back!"

And in answer another wave swept forward and curled around the king's feet. The tide came in, just as it always did. The water rose higher and higher. It came up around the king's chair, and wet not only his feet, but also his robe. His officers stood before him, alarmed, and wondering whether he was not mad.

"Well, my friends," Canute said, "it seems I do not have quite so much power as you would have me believe. . . .

No amount of rhetoric can change the laws of physics and chemistry and to the extent that the global models are accurate, we should see not only the past evidence but rising sea levels. The deniers are welcome to believe any nonsense they wish but that doesn't change the natural world. Soon enough, the sea level will be make arguments that are immune to rhetoric . . . or maybe it won't.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

It's a gimmich in that the non-hybrid version of the HCH can do pretty good on mpg. When I see a hybrid that does 2-3x mpg than it's non-hybrid counterpart, it will no longer be a gimmick in my books.

Until that happens, I won't buy another hybrid. I am happy with what I got only because at the time there wasn't really anything better for the price I paid, but now, there seems to be a lot out there and the hybrid technology hasn't really improved all that much. Which means the manufacturers are in no rush to improve because there are a lot of people with their rose colored glasses on here.

Liv, IMHO it depends more on advances in battery technology, which is still struggling to be much better than we have now.

Once the battery technology improves, we will have truly amazing hybrids and electric cars.

But like I said earlier, they (today's crop of hybrids) are not perfect but they are by far the best the planet had for what they do....

Engineering doesn't work that way. A new technology comes along and there will be a period of tuning and optimization. During this time, there will be 'lessons learned' that will move the envelope. For example, the Wright flyer was not capable of Mach 3 but the ability to climb higher than the launch point made it infinitely more capability and with more promise than anything that had come before.

Now I'm not fan of CNW Marketing but I agree that today's hybrids will in time be considered the Model-T of their generation (certainly my NHW11 meets that criteria.) So I and other hybrid owners with a technical bend have been 'souping up' our individual cars to achieve better performance. We're "green rodders" versus "hot rodders" and some of the modifications have been remarkable: plug-in Prius; 5th wheel Insight; extended manual controls on Insights and HCH. This is how we advance the art.

I wouldn't call it 'rose colored glasses' as much as seeing the promise and in some cases, tuning our cars to meet that promise. My personal goal is Al Gore's 80 MPG. Once I've achieved that benchmark, I'll be looking for new technologies to explore.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.