What does the 'green' in GreenHybrid symbolize? Something monetary or something environmental in nature?

In reading over the GreenHybrid site, I have a few concerns regarding its 'Green'-ness.

Like it or not, a great deal of the focus on this site is raising mile per gallon (MPG). The mileage database keeps track of miles drive and gallons used, or alternatively, the MPG reading on the dashboard. Nearly every post on the forum contains tips on improving MPG, or getting the most number of miles out of a tank. Some of these techniques are not very 'Green' in nature.

For example,
1) Topping off the tank--"Fill your car to the neck. Yes, so you can see the gas at the top"
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/m...highlight=long
This one should already be obvious, but in case you are unaware, check out the EPA's site:
www.epa.gov/donttopoff/

2) Carrying Passengers--"Every 100 pounds of weight in the trunk decreases fuel efficiency by about 2 percent."
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/c...gers.1949.html

3) Driving slow--"My Insight will get maximum fuel economy somewhere between 39-44 miles per hour"
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/d...rpms.3896.html
If you are driving on a crowded highway with a 70MPH speed limit, and you're doing 50MPH, you will cause many, many others to break, and then accelerate around you. If this happens enough times on a given trip, you will be doing more to decrease overall MPG than you will do to increase your individual MPG.

Other FE strategies such as "finding a longer route to work" if your commute is short, so that the car has a chance to "warm up"...I'm sorry, but to me seem ridiculous, almost to the point it's humorous.

I think the mileage database should add a date marker so you can also monitor your miles per day (MPD), miles per week (MPW), or any other unit of time. The focus should still be on conservation, not something artificial like MPG.

My suggestion is to use good old-fashioned common sense.

Don't top off your tank...it is more 'green' in both senses of the word.

If you can carpool with someone, you should at least double the overall efficiency of the both of you, regardless of weight.

If you see an 18 wheeler barreling down on you, speed up a little to prevent unnecessary breaking from the semi. That soot that spews out of its smokestacks when it accelerates back up to speed ain't exactly 'green'.

If your commute is too short to allow the car to warm up and achieve high MPG, ride a stinking bike if you are able-bodied! They require no gasoline, the only fuel is food and the efficiency is high since the fuel requires no combustion. Plus it's good for your heart. Again, more 'green' in both senses of the word.

Increase your MPG if you are solely interested in money (though I question the motive for paying several thousand extra dollars up front to save an equivalent amount over several years). Otherwise pay more attention to decreasing your MPD without increasing the MPG of others, and less attention to your individual MPG.

First! Or maybe just foolish enough to respond.
Can't there be more than one meaning to it? I think most of us would say so. And who wants to go to www.darkshadowmetallicgreyhybrid.com?

I'm going to borrow an analagy from Hot_Georgia_2004 (My analogy),

Living in a subdivision, the house next door is identical to yours.
A new neighbor moves in.
You notice a few things about their odd behavior.

The first thing is all the lights are left on 24 hrs. He plants two 5K watt spotlights illuminating the front, another in his back yard but places a large container over it to stop the beam. You notice the light escaping from the bottom edge.
How strange, especially with the looming electricity shortage.

Your neighbor is a friendly one and invites you over.
You notice it's freezing cold inside for AC units in every room.
Faucets are left running, flowing down the drain.

He complains about the rising cost.

"This good sense home is costing me a fortune. I keep the lights on because they look nice and I don't want to look cheap. I know we have zero crime but lights are a deterrent.
Besides, I'm doing my reasonable part to conserve.
I keep a heater running in two of the air conditioned rooms to raise the temperature to 78.
I also keep the light in the back covered to hold the energy in.
I'm doing the all I can." He says.

They usually agree the neighbor in the story isn't making sense.
I continue:

A year later I moved to another location.
The first night I couldn't sleep for all the light.
Almost everyone had spotlights and house lights burning all night. Some had 6 10K watt lights in their front yard shining like great pillars into the sky. Larger. More powerful than the others.
Perplexed, I noticed only one dim spot in the whole city. My own house.
One day the neighbor invited me over to visit.

They doubted changing habits would save much, and they needed the lights on for one reason or another.
Besides, they felt it necessary to "Run with the pack, do the normal thing".

Going home and refusing to follow their error, you found more ways to save. You spend a little more on fluorescents, turned off appliances etc.
You compared notes with other people who lived just fine in the dimmer houses.
YOUR energy bill went down substantially.

Next month the electricity cost rose and people began to complain more loudly.
To your dismay, more of those lights began to be covered.
Your neighbor complains he has already doing all he can but haven't seen much savings.
He can't understand why you continue to keep your house dim.
They think it's the house that's saving you money.
Some consider you "Extreme".

We're sharing ways to turn off lights, and save on our bills. It's not enough that we're homeowners, we have to know how to run the home.



Oh, we can play that game. http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/w...ight=Pump+stop

Look, a thread by me, about not putting more fuel in after the pump clicks off.


Your point here? It does. Ford themselves discussed it in their driving clinic.


LOL, right. We all drive our vehicles slow, even on the expressway.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/d...ighlight=speed

I think that's pretty comprehensive about how we feel.


What, you have that, but not my own thread about adding a lightning bolt gun to the front?

And how does that change anything? Then we focus on other factors, and still use our MPGs at fueleconomy.gov, where we also share tank by tank data.


Really, do you think that such a statement is either groundbreaking news, or condescending? Pretty much every statement has been discussed here that you mentioned, as logical things to do, in certain circumstances.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/i...vironmentalist

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/w...ight=Magic+SUV

WRONG!

For the lazy. I was going to buy an Escape anyway. Paid about 4K more for the FEH than the conventional Escape I would've gotten. Savings in fuel and insurance per year? $2300. I intend to own the vehicle 10 years. $23,000 in savings, assuming gas prices don't go up over a conventional Escape in the same decade. Wow, that's almost another Escape! Don't tell me I didn't save any money, or it all works out even in the end.

As I said, my hybrid purchase had nothing to do with the environment (though it's a very nice bonus), and everything to do with the green in my pocket. If all greenhybrid cared about was the environmental whackos, then many of us would probably be elsewhere, not sharing about how to get a positive experience out of their hybrid.

Instead, we're here because we have something in common, though many of us are greenies, techies, or cheapies (or 2 or more), but because we bought our hybrids, and want to share about it as an emerging community.

If you instead try to focus the group on the agenda of a smaller subset, you can end up doing far more harm than good. I think perhaps you are correct; SOME people are missing the point, and not seeing the forest from the trees.

First 4WD Hypermiler

Have you read the FEH FAQ?

Live in Michigan? Let it be known in Michigan Roll Call

Read My Automotive Blog at Rich Rambles

Hi Environmental Wakko:

___I am glad Privus Prime started this one off with a great reply …

1) Do you really think the EPA knows your HCH or my Accord? They don’t so why are you driving to the gas station as often as you must? Why are you burning so much gas in your HCH when you know you could save more? Your post and obvious habits show poor environmental stewardship if you ask me?

2) What don’t you understand?

3) An Insight 5-speed at steady cruise will achieve a maximum FE at ~ 32 miles per hour. This does not include some of the tricks we can throw at her to make her shine even more … In response to your own post, this doesn’t mean you will be traveling at that speed all the time or all Insight owners would have 130 or higher lmpg’s! If you have the ULEV version of the CVT based HCH, I am sure you know its reaches a peak FE of ~ 80 mpg around 42 or so miles per hour once lean burn is achieved and the CVT is locked up at its highest final ratio. How many CVT based HCH’s do you see with 80 lmpg’s? Exactly 0!

4) If the Fuel burned on the slightly longer route is less overall, then by all means consider the slightly longer route. Not many here actually drive an extra 10 miles just for the sake of higher FE. I myself drive 1.35 miles longer for ~ 35% higher FE over that extra 1.35 miles vs. the slightly shorter route. 6 stop signs and heavy city traffic at 50 - 55 miles per hour bumper to bumper barreling into those stop signs vs. 2 stop signs with no traffic whatsoever. This action saves a few ounces of fuel vs. the slightly shorter route and it costs me 1.5 minutes. How about you Mr. Wakko? Would you care to explain your paltry FE to the rest of us because driving the speed limit is too slow for you or that extra 1.5 minutes to save a few ounces of fuel is too little to worry about? The next time you burn up an extra 4.4 ounces of fuel because you can, you just added another pound of CO2 to our one and only environment. Should I thank you now or should I thank you later for f$(%^@!g up the atmosphere and the air we breath that much more then you need too?

___Carpooling … Don’t you think each and everyone of us here have thought about, tried, or actually do this? Riding a bike? Why do you own a car when you could obviously get by with a bike and I don’t care if you have to travel half the way across the **** country to get to work. You could ride your bike but I see you own an HCH too? What are you trying to teach the rest of us anyway? Do you want to speak about $’s out of our pockets, SMOG and GHG based emissions, trade imbalances and our balance of such … How about something along more personal lines like automobile choice and personal wants?

___Now that you have seen my sarcasm toward what could best be described as a trolling post at best, I can only hope you will sit back, relax, and learn more about what is actually being discussed here at GH. As of this writing, you are severely off track.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

You would probably be a fan of www.flexcar.com

Not only a good idea, but also 100% of their new vehicles are HCHs.....

Maybe we should measure "people miles per gallon" instead? That way you might get 40 mpg hauling 3 other people vs 50 by yourself, but you could multiply that by 4 to get 160 pmpg... LOL.

But then you get into issues like "Well did that person really need to be in the car or not?". If someone is taking a joyride in their vehicle are they wasteful? These are all good questions.

In any case you remind me of the case where your sig. other comes home and says "I saved 30% on this stuff I bought today" and you respond "That's great, but you could have saved 100% if you bought nothing".

environmental wakko,

I hope you recover from this trollish intro. While you have some good points, Psy 101 must have taught that you don't do your fault-finding right after meeting someone. If you can refrain from such posts, you might be taken seriously.

I'll conceed that sometimes maybe we should be less concerned with the mpg on our dashboards and more with fuel consumed over a month. Ditto on riding with passengers or people unfamiliar with hybrids....

You mention "the big picture". Even if some of us at GreenHybrid lose track of the ultimate goal, just imagine the general American population driving like us. I doubt there would be a shortage of heating oil, and gas pump prices would probably be at $1.50 - under $2.00 nationally for sure. America's energy policy would be treated as seriously as The War on Terrorism. While the GH members are imperfect, I'd be dreaming if the general public did half of what we do.

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

Best Run >
www.cleanmpg.com

"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

Should not reply.... must not type.... can't stop typing.....oh well. Sigh.
Because that's the major thing we have the most control over, and it's what we deal with day in and day out. Also, using less fuel is absolutely a "green" trait (begins the journey of one day using alternative fuels).

I suspect this is practiced by an insignificantly small number of people. You probably did more harm mowing your lawn last week (unless you have a electric mower... )

So does rain, cold, low tire pressure, and a headwind. I doubt this seriously prevents anyone from sharing a ride.

I'm continually stunned by the mantality that because the mob drives in a wasteful, wreckless and lawless manner, we must be terriorized in doing likewise in the name of "safety". Law abiding drivers are not the problem, they are simply a minority (this has been debated before you brought it up, so this is an old rant for me). I don't owe anyone on the highway a thing besides driving an appropriate speed in the appropriate lane (um, and paying attention... ). That, by the way, includes doing at least the limit. I've never heard anyone on this site say they travel 50 on a highway where everyone is doing 70 (or at least continue to do so). Most everyone says that doing below the limit is something they reserve for when they are alone on the road.

Doubt again if anyone stuck with this practice.

It is not a hybrid owners fault that semi's spew filth into the air. I do not owe speeding semi drivers anything. Now, common sense says to watch out for them. However I don't need to do strange things to make them or anyone else drive more efficiently (assuming of course, that I am driving in a sensible manner myself). I will agree with you that creating a hazard on the road (for whatever reason) is bad. However if I'm driving the limit in a safe and lawful manner, the problem is with those that are not.

First, I've saved over $1800 in fuel over the three years I've owned my hybrid, fully recovering the cost of the hybrid over the standard Civic. If you own your car long enough, the savings is a no-brainer. Second, using less gas saves a lot more than money. The last statement seems to imply that hybrid owners are all camped out in the right lane going 10 below the limit. I've never, ever seen that, nor do I practice it myself (unless I'm alone on the road). Most folks agree going at least the limit in traffic is the smartest thing to do. In any event, it's not the fault of a safe driver going the limit that folks have to speed around them. That's THEIR problem.

One final point on doing miles / day and such. I, like several forum members, have logged over 80 tanks. I have three years of data on a graph that I stare at. There were tanks where I got 42 MPG. Others 52. Same route, same car, same driver. There are dozens of factors that influence your MPG that you will notice when you are looking at it this closely. Heat, rain, wind, cold, elevation, tires, oil, gas, traffic... I've concluded there are too many variables at play to draw any conclusions from any one tank, let alone a day or a gallon. I prefer to characterize my car's performance relative to the four seasons - only then do I have enough samples to look at trends.

*** Retired after 65,000 outstanding miles ***

My name is EricGo, and I have sinned.

I have been known to take longer routes to inflate my tank FE, but now that I am a hypermiler, I don't do that anymore, and will berate anybody who does.

There. Satisfied, EW ?

There is a not small amount of self effacing humor at GH. I'm afraid you will have to tolerate it if you wish to enjoy your read here.

R2-E2, 2G Prius.
Highway/City/Husband/Wife MPG: 56.5, as of 12/2005, 26K miles

Jac Nasser, Ford President: "We are planning to launch a hybrid version of
this car [P2000] within this year [1998]. We will also make FCEV available in
2004."

After having our say, lets not continue this discussion beyond Friday.

Let the thread-starter have an opportunity to make some positive contributions to the www.greenhybrid.com community - this is the true test. Let the thread-starter talk about his experiences with his hybrid and talk a little more about himself - after all, he wants credibility. Anyone can start out and find numerous faults in a condecending manner - there is no brilliance in doing so.

If the reply is more of the same, I'll feed my cats rather than a troll. I know GH members are concerned with saving energy and will do the same if the baiting continues....

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

Best Run >
www.cleanmpg.com

"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

Dear environmental wakko

I agree with you in principle on each of your points. I could nitpick and point out that you don't really double your mileage when you carpool unless you live with the person you are pooling with (so you don't need to drive out of you way to pick them up) and if you ignore the 2%. I think your point is still a good one even if the math is not 100%. Surely it would take less gas per person if you carpool.

I personally don't play the miles per tank game so I also do not fill past the single click.

I was doing some crazy stuff like taking longer routes to get the mileage up but realized how silly this was and so I've quit.

I only drive slow when traffic is light. I've been out of town and working day shift for the last few weeks and was forced to keep up with big city traffic and my last few tanks much lower than average as a result. Going slow in night shift traffic in a small town is not a problem.

I think the guys are being a little hard on you, DF is correct in that your comments would have been taken beter after you were around for a while. People don' like to hear they are doing something wrong. Technically I think you are correct but socially you stepped in it a little bit.

i don't think the miles per day is a good thing to look at... a lot of days i don't drive anywhere. but about once a month a drive over 400 miles in a day. there is nothing i can do to cut back on that 400 miles except not drive any of them, it's all or nothing... sorry but i can't do nothing. it seems to me that hybrid owners drive more... (i'm basing this on a lot of used hybrids having high mileage... my own car had about 3k miles put on it each month the previous owner had it.) i think this is because people get hybrids because they are already driving a lot, they don't drive more because they have hybirds. think about how much gas they'd be wasting if they just stuck to regular cars. if i had to drive a suburban i'd use 5 times the amount of gas i'm using now! not that anyone has to drive a suburban... but they do. more realistically i'm probably doing about twice as good as what i'd get in an average car. what does an average car get? i'm doing >50% better than my old car... but i don't think that really counts because i needed a new car anyway, my previous car was 10 years old... if i didn't get this car i'd most likely have been getting worse mpgs than my last car.