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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 05:59 AM
Sledge's Avatar
YA RLY.
 
Real Name: Bubo scandiacus
Location: Saginaw, MI
Hybrids: 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid
Posts: 610
Default New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

An EDrive conversion costs $12,000. HyMotion's conversion is $9,000. The new kid on the block, Electro Energy, has a conversion that costs only $5k (they use advanced NiMH instead of Li-Ion). It's only a matter of time now

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...&id=16922&pg=1

The company:

http://www.electroenergyinc.com/

.



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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 08:54 AM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
 
Posts: 302
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

$5k now means a $2k option from Toyota in 2008.

Actually it has already been leaked that the 2008 Prius will come with 9-mile electric range and recharge at home capability (possible even as standard).
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 10:19 AM
no more oil
 
Real Name: Tom Davie
Location: Palm Bay Florida
Hybrids: Toyota Highlander Limited Hybrid
Posts: 229
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

is starting to happen

bring on the plug in hybrid !!!!

within 3 years the bugs will be worked out and will cost about the same as todays hybrids................

.

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Old 05-25-2006, 11:54 AM
Archslater's Avatar
Enthusiastically Active
 
Real Name: Nick
Location: Indianapolis
Hybrids: 06 Honda Civic Hybrid
Posts: 364
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

It says it gets 100 mpg..... Does that really take into consideration the extra energy taken through the plug? That raises interesting questions about how EPA ratings will be done on these vehicles. They will get wonderful fuel efficiency, but there will have to be new ratings created to measure how energy efficient they are (fully electric H2 vs fully electric Prius). I'm not saying it is a bad thing, especially since electric energy from the grid is much cleaner than petroleum energy, just that it will create a new way of thinking.

An H2 could hold a lot of batteries, so you could have drivers of electric H2's 10 years from now feeling good about themselves because of their zero emissions.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 12:48 PM
no more oil
 
Real Name: Tom Davie
Location: Palm Bay Florida
Hybrids: Toyota Highlander Limited Hybrid
Posts: 229
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

hi

to be honest, i wouldnt care if it didnt get any better mileage in the slightest.

to charge the thing fully overnight costs about $1 in electicity, and for most of my driving, ZERO gas used. Thus zero emmissions from my vehicle.

there is no way this can be a bad thing vs driving a normal hybrid or a gas car. Lets face it, the infrastructure is already in place , electricity is going to win the alternate fuel war. Combine it with a smaller gas engine in the car , and lets get off foreign oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 01:29 PM
Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Eric
Location: Central PA
Hybrids: 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid
Posts: 146
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

Keep in mind that this is a prototype according to the article. It is NOT in production yet and doesn't appear that it will be for a year or so. I suspect it might take a bit longer (2009-2010) to get plug-in hybrids to the point where we would like them to be!

Eric
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 01:30 PM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Mike
Hybrids: 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
Posts: 474
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

Quote:
It says it gets 100 mpg..... Does that really take into consideration the extra energy taken through the plug? That raises interesting questions about how EPA ratings will be done on these vehicles. They will get wonderful fuel efficiency, but there will have to be new ratings created to measure how energy efficient they are (fully electric H2 vs fully electric Prius). I'm not saying it is a bad thing, especially since electric energy from the grid is much cleaner than petroleum energy, just that it will create a new way of thinking.
Current hybrids already get to "cheat" at the EPA test by starting with a full pack, and ending the test with a less than full pack. As far as I don't know, the EPA doesn't run multiple trials to account for this effect. Wtih several kilowatts of charged power, the EPA test would be effectively worthless, as it would be only accurate for a trip starting with a full charge that is the exact length of the EPA test, no more, no less.

Quote:
It says it gets 100 mpg..... Does that really take into consideration the extra energy taken through the plug?
It couldn't possibly. I'm sure that the extra power does actaully improve the fuel efficiency of the gasoline engine, even beyond the "free" power, by enabling it to run in a more efficient RPM range and shutting it down more, but nowhere near a 2:1 swing. The 100mpg really should be 100miles per gallon and some kilowatt hours.

To be useful, the EPA data the way it's currently done would need to show results for drive distances of at least three varying lengths, in both city and highway, and assuming a full pack vs assuming an empty pack. That right there is 12 tests. Perhaps those could be averaged to produce a City/Highway value for simple comparative purposes, but even that is pretty sketchy.

At that point, I say it's easier to refer to efficiency in cost to drive. Say you use 1 gallon and 10kWH to to drive 100 miles, at $3 a galllon and $0.10kWh. That would be $4/100mi or $0.04 a mile, as compared to maybe 6 to 8 cents a mile for the standard hybrid. Anywhere from 25-50% savings. Emissions savings should far exceed that, due to more efficient usage of your ICE for less time, and contribution from cleaner grid-derived power.

Also, with the way plug-in hybrids work, for short trips, where the motor can be recharged in between, You woudl use almost no gas. More importantly, by using wall-charged power, you'll spend 4 times less money for very short trips, and contribute very minimal pollution compared to running a cold gasoline engine--even a hybrid engine.

On longer trips, that extra power could be used to make the gasoline engine run more efficiently as well, by using extremely aggressive assist to keep it in its peak efficient powerband, and shutting off the engine more than would be possible otherwise (as there woulnd't be a need for the engine to run to directly replenish the batteries -- a very inefficient process) this way, the electric power could make a significant difference of the entire duration of a long trip as well.

Finally, the extra battery pack should allow the car to do much better in the mountains by providing extra capacity for regenerative braking.

Extra cost to add plug-in ability to a hybrid makes more sense from an economic payback perspective than even adding a hybrid system to a normal gasoline system does at this point.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 02:19 PM
Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Gasper
Posts: 1
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

That's some very good news!! Phev's are on they way.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 02:48 PM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first
 
Real Name: Bob
Location: Huntsville, AL
Hybrids: Prius Classic 03
Posts: 5,208
Wink Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Trinity
Current hybrids already get to "cheat" at the EPA test by starting with a full pack, and ending the test with a less than full pack. As far as I don't know, the EPA doesn't run multiple trials to account for this effect. . . .
One of the earlier threads pretty well punctured this myth. Although an individual test may have a larger SOC, the begining and end of the series has to have the same SOC. I believe it was a thread with "Captain Obvious" who tried every hybrid myth around and went away once one of our Maryland members found and cited the EPA testing protocol for hybrids.

No, the real reason why EPA numbers are so good is:
  • City - average speed 30 mph
  • Highway - average speed 48 mph
As a challenge to you, change your weekly commute to use either of these two speeds appropriate to your driving conditions. Use cruise control to mantain speeds. I think you'll find your MPG shoots up that week. It is the secret to my success.

Bob Wilson

.

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My
other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 03:52 PM
finman's Avatar
Prius geek
 
Real Name: Curt
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Hybrids: '04 Prius
Posts: 260
Default Re: New player in the plugin hybrid game: $5k for 25 miles

Totally agree on the speed kills MPG note. Construction season is here and the slower speeds required thru work zones has me at a 56 MPG tank...3 previous tanks at 50+ MPG. Granted, the warm temps are a big factor, too.

Slow down for MPG.

Plug-ins are the way. It seems sad to think it will be a 360 degree turnaround from just a few short years ago. EV1, Rav4 EV, Ford ranger EVs, and the like. A turnaround for the good, but nonetheless, the technology has been here. The market is SOOO ready to get off gas.

.

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.
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