Here is the question:

Which is more important, my own personal MPG? Or "collective MPG," which I define to mean "getting as many people as possible to drive hybrids."

If the answer is "personal mileage", then I would be inclined to do all things possible to increase my own MPG. Including things such as driving well below the speed limit, or slowing down when going up hills. I may be somewhat considerate of other drivers, but when push comes to shove, I would value my MPG higher, and behave accordingly.

The general idea of "personal MPG" is that overcoming our "addiction to oil" begins primarily with the person in the mirror -- me.

If the answer is "collective mileage", then I am inclined to have my hybrid make a positive impression on others, in the interest of convincing them to consider buying and driving a hybrid. Thus I will be more likely to go along with the traffic flow, at the expense of my own MPG. Or other similar behaviors, which might get me another MPG or two, but might possibly alienate other drivers.

The general idea is that overcoming our "addiction to oil" is best done by getting *everybody* to switch to hybrid technology.

I know that there are many shades of grey here, but I think this topic is quite relevant and so I am hoping that having to choose between the two will stimulate discussion.

Great question. I side on the 'collective' MPG. Although one person can make a difference and yes it starts with one, to make an impact on the worldwide (note I'm not just thinking US either) use of petroleum, it is going to take a collective effort.

I see this as not just a MPG thing, but also something that includes a variety of alternative fuel choices and vehicles. I think that the first step is in 'right-sizing.' No doubt we live in a country where bigger is sold to us as better, but often something a bit smaller will do the job equally as well. I understand the need for a truck when your trade requires it, an AWD vehicle when you live where winter is harsh, and a minivan when the family grows .... BUT all too often I see ego-vehicles, and the marketing behind them, cloud otherwise environmentally caring people.

Collective MPG can be improved without all that much pain. Its going to require a national effort that includes education and salesmanship to the public and the industries filling their demands. We have dipped our national toes in the water right now, its now time to move in a direction that will continue this start. To the naysayers that question if society can't change without economic pressures ... I remember the "Don't litter" campaign of the 60s that had most everyone on board because it was good for our country. I think improving the MPG of the nations cars and trucks is possible ... and that a lot of it can be done with national marketing.

--RichC --- "My Desultory Blog" & CinciTDI Club

There is a lot of FUD and false information out there about hybrid-electrics. After a while, you get tired of "pounding sand" and have to move on. It is not fun being like the Greek Casandra, the person who predicts the future but is disbelieved.

Locally, I've let every engineer who rides to lunch have a chance to drive my 03 Prius back. Most have and since then, they don't 'share' FUD or false claims with me. None of them have bought a hybrid-electric but they know who to see for the voice of experience. Plus I've shared my web site with the current facts and data.

But even hybrid-electric owner drivers have a learning curve and we need to spend quality time mastering and expanding this technolgy. We also have to earn our living as well achieve fuel and vehicle savings. We can't fritter our lives away trying to convence the unconvencible.

I make time to share what little I've learned with other hybrid-electric owners, operators and advocates. By explaining what I've found, it often gives new insights and leads to new approaches. But I have less time to spend with those 'kicking the tires.' As for those 'kicking the doors', Proverbs has some good advice.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

I have not voted (yet?). I simply cannot decide. (Sometimes astrology gets the better of me (I am a Gemini)!) I think both are very important; also, the better my personal MPG is, the more my answer to a common question I get - "So, what kind of mileage do YOU get with that thing?" - may help to persuade more people to try a hybrid. But I am also tempted sometimes to engage in driving behavior that might send a bad signal about hybrids (e.g., driving or accelerating slowly might create a belief that hybrids are underpowered), to improve my own personal "bottom line," and I always argue within myself about exactly this issue.

This is a VERY interesting question, and I look forward to reading more thought-provoking replies. Maybe I will even be convinced to vote in one direction or the other!

Clearly collective is more important as one person's achevements are just a drop in the bucket. However at the same time there is usually very little one person can do to infuence a group but there is a lot a single person can do to improve their own mileage.

Interesting; I think I disagree with one aspect of your last comment, that "there is little one person can do to influence a group."

I agree that there is often little that one person can do to influence a group positively.

However, I believe that there is much that one person can do, to influence a group negatively. Look at Pat Robertson, and the black eye he gives everybody who claims to be a christian or religious in some way. His behavior taints the entire movement he is trying to promote.

In the same way, there may or may not be a lot that I can do to influence people towards hybrids via my positive behavior. But it seems to me that there is a *lot* that I could do to influence them negatively towards hybrids, by my inconsiderate or thoughtless behavior.

Unfortunately, the entire mpg focus is misleading.

Here's why: framing a vehicle's consumption as mpg creates intuitive-but-wrong thinking about large-scale priorities. It's clearer if you structure the analysis as gallons-per-year, rather than mpg. If you drive a Prius that averages 40 mpg and drive 12000 miles per year, your consumption of gas will be 300 gallons/year. If you have a Dodge truck that averages 10 mpg, driven an equivalent amount, your consumption will be 1200 gallons/year. So far, so good.

(BTW, don't bother with "I get 90 mpg driving my Prius" - the mpg figures used here are illustrative only, but reasonable. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.)

But let's take market equivalents and compare them. What's more environmentally/socially beneficial: switching from that Dodge truck that gets 10 mpg to a GM hybrid truck that gets 15: or switching from a Camry that gets 25 mpg to the Prius that gets 40? In one case the increase is a trivial 5 mpg, while in the other the increase is a WHOPPING 15 MPG!!! Clearly, focusing single-mindedly on mpg, the market priority should be on maximizing the mpg figure, right? So we should put our marketing and production resources behind cars that deliver the greatest mpg, not making trivial reductions in consumption of gas guzzlers. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Alas, no. Let's look at those two cases again. The Camry will use, on average, 480 gallons of gas/year yielding a savings of 180 gallons by switching to the Prius. The GMC will use 800 gallons/year, saving a full 400 gallons/year over the Dodge. In other words, a 5 mpg increase yields more than TWICE the gas savings of a 15 mpg increase.

Which is why focusing on mpg is misleading at best.

I think the personal or collective question goes hand in hand.

I bought my own car to raise my efficiency on a personal level.

On the other hand it is also collective, not only for the many benefits already mentioned. If it is not collective then they will not sell very well and no longer make these wonderful machines. When our Grand Caravan croaks we want hybrids to be available !

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

I chose collective, but I am not using quite the same logic that you articulate in your question. I think that the impact I have on the rest of the country's attitude towards hybrid cars has to do with several things that are a lot more influential than whether I drive more slowly up hills. I'm probably not as much of a car fanatic as some people here, but if I'm annoyed by someone in traffic, I don't generally look to see what kind of car they're driving and start making generalizations about the performance and capabilities of that car based on the driver and his or her idiotic driving. Sometimes, maybe, but not very often. Maybe it's just me, but I think that we, as individuals, can drive to maximize our own mpg, using whatever driving techniques we feel comfortable with, and trying our best to blend in with traffic to the extent we can, and not have much of a detrimental impact on the collective impression that people have of hybrid cars. If we talk to our coworkers and friends when they ask, say that we love our hybrid cars, mention 45 mpg in passing, talk them up when we can and just generally let it be known that we drive hybrids, then it will get people used to the idea of hybrids as a market choice. They won't seem so 'weird,' once people they know drive them, and they won't be so intimidating as a new and risky technology if they see us, normal people, using them and liking them. I'm optimistic- I think it's just a matter of time, and we can have both.

Gallons per year saved? Or gallons per year used? In your example, if we're to focus on gallons used, the Prius still comes out ahead. At 12K miles per year, with all the vehicles you described, the Prius still uses the least amount of fuel. Now if you mean to say we should focus on gallons saved, then the number could be infinite for *any* vehicle based speculatively on places to which one doesn't drive. I haven't driven cross-country since 2001. Wow, what a savings! But seriously folks....

By improving ones own mpg, no matter what car they own, they use less gallons of gas to drive an undetermined number of miles. There's a one-to-one relationship there.

Per the mileage database, assuming accuracy, our HiHy has traveled 11,138 miles on 368.5 gallons at 29.9mpg average. The next highest mileage 2WD HiHy has traveled 8,639 miles on 352.7 gallons at 24.5mpg average. We have used 15.8 gallons more (nearly one whole tank), but have traveled 2,499 miles further. If we remove those 15.8 gallons so we're on equal footing gallons-wise, that brings us to 10,577 miles, or 1,938 miles further on the same amount of gas.

I'm not trying to disparage any other driver at all, because everyone's doing what they can in their situation, and we all decided to buy hybrids and that's a good thing, but given the numbers, I don't think focusing on mpg is misleading at all.

Our display shows us our mpg much more accurately than the fuel gauge tells us how many gallons we're using. So we focus on mpg. It's an easy barometer for using less gas. Perhaps the Canadian displays, which show liters per kilometer, would be better? Whether you focus on using less gas or increasing mpg, in the end, the results are positive!

Rick