Thanks. I just got a quote from a somewhat local dealer for a '07 Prius Touring w/Pkg 3 for a hair under $25k, which includes the VSC, Back-up camera, bluetooth, Smart key, etc.

I'm really starting to lean more toward the Prius given the prospect of potentially better fuel efficiency, more torque, and larger size.

My feeling exactly!

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

I got 47.5mpg over a 30 mile city drive (stopping for several errands) in our HCH II on Saturday. I was pretty stoked about it since the car is brand new and I was expecting much worse for the first few thousand miles. Since I haven't gassed it up yet, I don't know if the computer calculation is accurate (high or low) yet. I'm hoping it is though because I'm only expecting the milage to get better once the car is broken in!

I think the Toyota is a great car too, but we didn't actually drive it when we were shopping. It sounds like they are finally starting to come down in price but we weren't interested in spending that much. Have you driven either or both of them yet?

OK, for 1-2 mile trips, I thought a non-hybrid would be the best choice.

I know in my TCH, if I was to only do 2-3 mile trips the engine would not be warm, and I would be lucky to see 30 MPG.

I would say the longer the trip and at reasonable speeds, the better the hybrid does.

If I were in your shoes, I would look long and hard at an efficient non-hybrid. Hate to throw a wet towel on the idea. But if you are getting it for the support of the technology, then get what you are passionate about; be it the HCH or the Prius.

Does the gen 2 prius or HCH-2 get good mileage from the get go?

Would waiting a year to get the supposed plug-in prius be better as your driving appears to be 99% non ICE driving with what is supposed to be in the gen 3 prius?

Consider this as an alternate perspective...

By choosing a non-hybrid you are just saving yourself from seeing how lowsy the warm up mileage is.

In reality, the warm-up mileage of a non-hybrid is likely to be worse than that of an HCH or Prius. Just attach a Scangauge II to a modern gas-only car and you'll be shocked to see the initial mileage match that of a Lambo or Ferrari.

To many of us it is simply easier to defer the pain of seeing the low mileage on warmup by recommending a gas-only vehicle - which often conceals that information.

But the fact still remains that hybrids will likely consume less and pollute less than a similar gas-only vehicle under similar operating conditions. Short driving distances are not optimal operating conditions for any vehicle. In the end you just have to choose how much of a real environmental and fuel loss you're willing to bear.

But ...

On the other hand, short driving distances will cause premature wear of the emmissions systems. A modern hybrid would sustain marginally higher maintenance costs than a gas-only vehicle if it were to be operated consistently under such regime where it is denied a full warm-up.



Cheers;

MSantos

Yes, but from an economics point of view, the non-hybrid will get nearly the same lousy warmup mileage as the hybrid, as both engine will be running in a open loop warm up cycle, and the battery assist will help very little to boost the warm up mileage. At the same time, you are paying a premium on weight carring around the battery packs, extra motors, and on top of that you are paying more for it in terms of initial investment and possible maintenace if the batteries are only good to 8 years.

To make a hybrid financially benificial, you must drive more than 5 miles a day.

I do feel that there is some good reasons to buy a hybrid other than a pure cost savings argument, but IF that is your only reason for buying one, you need to look at all the alternatives before pulling the wool over your eyes.

I love my TCH, I could have gotten a Prius to get better mileage, but that was not my only consideration. I also have the benifit or maybe the disfortune of having a fairly long commute where the hybrid system helps a lot, but it is not an ideal commute by any stretch of the imagination.

If you have a 30 mile commute on flat ground where traffic speed is 40 - 45 MPH, and a few stops in between with a little bit of 60 - 65 MPH driving, then you have the perfect hybrid commute. Oh, you also need a tail wind in the morning that shifts dirrection mid day to get a tail wind in the evening.

Perhaps... then again we have been unable to back that up through empirical evidence.
We've literally taken a set of 06 Civic LX (1.8 liters I-4) and compared their instantaneous mileage (Via ODB-II readers) to that of 2 06 Civic hybrids. We did that when we were evaluating the units for city Taxi duty.

We found that during the first 5 minutes of operation at -10C the 06 LX vehicles were hitting 13 liters/100km while the 06 Hybrids were registering 8.5-9.0 liters/100km. This is a measurable diference in part attributed to the design and operating characteristics of the engines as well as their nominal displacements (1.8l versus 1.3l).

Yes, the hybrid versions pay a price for the additional weight particularly when that weight can help very little in terms of motive power. But despite this efficiency handicap, the net result still appears to give the advantage to a hybrid powertrain.

We believe that from subsequent observations, this assessment is at least apllicable when comparing similar vehicles.


Cheers;

MSantos

Well, the car is driven 600+ mi/month, but the majority of the trips are 1-3 mi in length, with the rest being 5-10 mi in length, so I think I have a chance of some EV only operation with that profile.

Are the trips grouped together?

If you can get the engine warm and keep it warm by not having too much time between trips, then you might get some benifit.

Let me suggest a simpler approach:

1) Go to the hybrid mileage database
2) Select vehicles with simular profiles to yours (aka., length of trips, miles per month, temperature)
3) Record the average of their MPG

This will give some basis of fact to work from. Although there is a Prius model, it assumes a steady-state, warmed-up condition. Since you are likly to see more 'warm-up' time, it makes sense to see what others are getting.

GOOD LUCK!

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.