With all the recent attention on hypermiling, both via contributors to the GH real mileage database, via the NPR broadcast on hypermiling etc... I have started to think about hypermiling, hybrids, and my own feelings of inadequacy as a hypomiler
- I'm currently running a lifetime avg of 45.7 mpg in my pipsqueak II.

Obviously hypermiling is quite feasible as demonstrated by many.
Obviously to me, it is also obtained under conditions that I would not like to replicate under most circumstances (as pointed out by many of the HM contributors).

The point of my post is related but different, and is summarized in this question:

Are hybrids necessary for hypermiling, and are they suited for hypermiling?

I'll jump ahead and give my answer to these questions: NO in both cases - and have to add that these answers are merely an educated guess.
Details will follow here:

Being a hypomiler myself, I have to go by the descriptions others have provided on hypermiling (HM) techniques. Burst & glide type locomotion (it goes by a variety of names, I like the one commonly used in biological research for the type of locomotion found to be energy saving by a lot of organisms), is the prevalent mode describe by HMs:
Accelerate to about 41 miles per hour, then glide to 31. Repeat until tank is empty.
As pointed out by some, the most effective way of doing this burst and glide, is to have zero energy flow to/from the battery, because that is inefficient.
The latter observation is what got me going.

Zero energy flow to / from battery pretty much bypasses all hybrid technology!
Then why use hybrids for hypermiling?

I therefore would hazard the statement that hybrid technology is not needed for hypermiling, and in fact may be a hindrance. Why? Simple: if you don't use it, lugging around the extra mass of an electric motor and battery will decrease your mileage.
In terms of the Prius, certainly aerodynamics and absence of clutch / torque converter will help, but those are Prius wizardry, not hybrid technology.

I believe HM have accomplished so much in hybrids, simply because hybrids other than the recent breed of hi-power SUVs and maybe the HAH (no hypermiling there) have such small and effiicent ICEs. I think the key to the type of hypermiling described here on GH, is simply a small, frugal engine (e.g. the ICEs in Prius and Insight), and a lightweight car, great aerodynamics, low rolling resistance.
The interesting thing is that for example by the standards of 25 years ago, the 73 hp of the Prius II ICE would have been quite potent. I would also guess that with small cars with small engines, from 25 years ago, one could easily hypermile to amazing extents (ok, not with SULEV or less emissions...).

The bottom line for my post is that I believe that all this attention on hypermiling is distracting from what hybrids are about and accomplish for daily drivers who cannot burst and glide to / from work. Hypermiling is not what hybrids are about IMHO, and hypermiling does not highlight the abilities of hybrids in any way.

Ok, long post, comments anyone?

M

In the case of the Prius, it's ability to shut down the ICE and start it up again without fuss makes in particularly suitable for HM driving. The Civic can do this, but it requires manual shut-downs and startups of the engine, like a normal car, although with considerably less stress on the starter. HM driving isn't exclusive to hybrids, but the Prius (especially) makes an excellent vehicle to HM in. The whole thing about not using the hybrid part of the vehicle is just about using it wisely. You don't necessarily want to regenerate electricity and slow the vehicle when you take your foot off the gas pedal, sometimes it's better for the vehicle to coast. Going down a long hill, then certainly use the brakes and generate a charge for the battery, but it's not always necessary to make use of the battery in order to get good mileage.

2001 Prius Photos       2005 Prius Photos
'97 Prius Simulation Prius inner workings

MGBT,

Most of my opinions on P&G are stated by Schwa above. I'll just add that Wayne has demonstrated without doubt the HM is not specific to the hybrid domain. Just look at his Honda Accord (non hybrid) MPG. It is close to 200% of EPA.

My take on the technique is a tool in the box. When driving conditions are conducive, I use it. More specifically, when it is best to coast, I glide :-)
In my city driving in particular, I have long stretches of gentle downhill slopes. Once I get up to speed, gliding (ICE off) allows me to travel literally miles at a time with no change in speed at all. Quiet, peaceful, simple, unobtrusive. What is not to like ?

In a similar vein, if I can keep my speed constant by electro- motor force only, I do that too.

These driving strategies are variants of P&G that take advantage of the hybrid, and specifically of the HSD design that allow one to drive part time with the ICE off. I have always appreciated quiet cars, so I LOVE stealth :-)
That it happens to also be a high MPG technique is icing on the cake.

I'll go out on a limb now: I suspect that the majority of people who have lmpg < 50 in a Prius II is not because they ignore P&G variants, but because anticipatory driving is lacking. My wife certainly fits the mould. She is as non-aggressive as one can find, but she simply cannot learn to take her foot off the gas until she is 30 meters from full stop. She doesn't even realize where the problem lies, and it causes a *lot* of frustration. She drives slower, uses less AC, and STILL posts lousy MPG trips.

R2-E2, 2G Prius.
Highway/City/Husband/Wife MPG: 56.5, as of 12/2005, 26K miles

Jac Nasser, Ford President: "We are planning to launch a hybrid version of
this car [P2000] within this year [1998]. We will also make FCEV available in
2004."

After working for 1 year and having just reached the hypermiler level, I would like to add my .02.



I am not a person who uses all the tips I get on this site. Many of the things I do take to heart, such as slow acceleration, anticipating stops, coasting when possible and turning off the engine when I stop if the car is not warm enough for auto-stop. I have not performed some of the more serious techniques of the folks getting in the top 10% of all the car classes. I realize that with my commute (less than 20 minutes), living in an area where I will climb a hill (or small mountain) almost anywhere I go and that I must use this car to get where I am going, whether short or long trip, I know that my time at hypermiler will probably be short. My pitfall will be Winter, when my morning commute will turn into a source of great frustration for me since my car stays outside and I am lucky if auto-stop starts to work when I can see my office.



For those than can become hypermilers, and stay there with whatever technique they use, I think it is great. I also think it is great that there is a site like this to let everyone share their experiences and other people can possibly pick up some hint that can help them increase 2 MPG.



With all of this rambling, I guess I wanted to say, if you are happy with your gas mileage, then good for you. If you can’t get to hypermiler, while using your car as a vehicle to get from point A to point B, because you can’t pick your driving time or route, then do the best you can. While driving a hybrid you are probably doubling the gas mileage you got prior to this, helping the environment and also helping to advance a growing technology. Who knows, your “sacrifice” to be one of group of leaders, may allow your children or grandchildren to have a car that will get 90 MPG without have to turn the engine off while doing down hill.

Billy

Or better yet, a car that knows to shut the engine off all by itself.

2001 Prius Photos       2005 Prius Photos
'97 Prius Simulation Prius inner workings

Thanks for the post MGBGT.

I too have given up hoping the wife will improve FE in the Grand Caravan, she simply refuses to be consistant. Alas, my praise of her few good tanks isn't enough.

I don't believe any person's current FE statistics matters that much, as long as they are striving to do better.

On the other hand, I could have decided a long time ago that since the 70MPH freeway is the only practical way to go, all I can hope for is 50MPG.
Instead I took the time to seek out other routes and found a good one.
Another example is a light that is always red...I could have decided that I simply must stop, but with some looking I found a (Legal) way not to stop at all.

There are too many examples of choices to post here and everyone's situation is vastly different.....the only thing I'm encouraging here is experimentation.

I can't take for granted that I've done all that I can do until I've already done it.
If I think I've done it all- then do it over again with a different variation.

The 45.7MPG you've done in pipsqueak II probably isn't all that bad for your situation.....but I know you can do better...And you will.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

That's true. The way I see the hybrid tech is as a means of having a very small, efficient engine while preserving sufficient performance. Using hybrid tech to achieve peak HP, which is only truly necessary during occasional passing, or accident-avoidance situations, is less of a "drain" than adding extra cylinders (even with cylinder shutoff) to accomplish the same would be, as extra cylinders add to overall engine friction all the time.

Also, there are ways that the (Honda IMA) hybrid tech could be more of a benefit, that simply haven't been implemented. Numerous insight drivers have experimented with manual IMA control, and have been able to achieve tremendous FE improvement over the stock "dumb" system.

Hi MGBGT:

___You are correct in many respects but the average driver will not take the average non-hybrid to any greater % above EPA highway or City then he would actually driving the hybrid. The Advantage the hybrid’s have are many including built in Autostops/ICE off logic, IMA/HSD pack starts, multiple gauges to help you learn let alone control your FE, and small ICE’s that are as efficient as all get out.

___Also, I do not promote P&G for everyone in all circumstances. P&G as Eric has pointed out is just one more tool in a toolbox filled with many. If you are in a traffic tie up that is not dead stopped, FAS’s can work wonders as I use them everyday. Do this for me. Map out a traffic jam in your head. Does accelerating to 20 miles per hour, coasting back down to 10 miles per hour with brakes, re-accelerating back up to 30 miles per hour, coasting back down to 0 miles per hour with brakes sound like a normal way to drive? You and I do this every time we are in a nightmare called a “Traffic Jam! The Prius II folks instead of pulling a FAS will simply just adjust their P&G technique to lower speeds and different ranges. Another tool in the tool box and one you could use any time you are in one of those ****ed traffic nightmares driving the Prius II! It is a lot easier in a Prius II then it is in a non-hybrid and even an IMA equipped hybrid of any sort! Trust me on this one

___I cannot describe the higher FE available from a hybrid vs. non-hybrid any better then possibly the following: When driving GreenAndBlue’s relatively brand new AH for one week on my own back and forth work commute, I could nail down 55 mpg within a matter of 20 miles almost at will once I started to get the feel for her. It does have tranny limitations that my non-hybrid Accord does not have through some situations but that is not a discussion for this thread. My non-hybrid Accord I4 simply was not nearly as forgiving in the FE department as the AH was. With a lot more work, I can approach and sometimes exceed the capability of the AH but very rarely.

___Now the real meat of the discussion … Place the same driver in either the AH or the non-hybrid I4 and the AH will finish out on top in just about any scenario one could imagine other then maybe a 2 minute trip to the gas station in 40 degree temps or below from dead cold. In the case of the AH, I am not really speaking about all of its whiz bang electric’s but its relatively simple VCM and Autostop which is included in the AH’s hybrid package. With that, let’s consider a Prius II or HCH? Again, if you place the same driver in either, he will absolutely destroy the FE he would have received in a Ford Taurus or Focus, Chevrolet Impala or Cobalt, DCC Intrepid or Neon. In fact, it wouldn’t even be close! You may argue that the Prius II and HCH average just 48 and 46 mpg respectively here at GH. If you can just imagine what the Ford Focus’, Chevrolet Cobalt’s, and Dodge Neon’s in the real world are actually achieving, you would be sickened! Take a look at Focusfanatics.com for a reality check on real world FE from guys driving a Focus day in and day out without the hybrid gauge training or the hybrid’s efficiencies that you are paying for. You do have guys smoking their tires at every third stop as well as those just driving to achieve higher FE but we are looking at an overall average irregardless of the group abilities to achieve higher FE. The average Focus pilot is receiving in the low to mid 20’s at best! Are the hybrids killing the average Ford Focus’ FE because of the hybrid electronics? The Hybrid’s efficiencies? Much better habits when an FCD is placed in front of a hybrid pilot? It doesn’t really matter because in the end, the average Joe driving his Ford Focus, Chevrolet Cobalt, or Dodge Neon back and forth to work is receiving ~ ½ of what that same average Joe would receive if he has an HCH or Prius II instead. Even considering a Toyota Echo, Corolla, or Civic, I know guys at work with all three including my son now driving and not updating tanks in the old Corolla. They are getting in the mid to upper 20’s in what you would have thought would be 38 - 40 + mpg vehicles! It is absolutely disgusting to see real world results in comparison to the EPA because those real world drivers simply do not know better!

___Sorry for ranting in this excellent thread but remember how each and every one of us have read in the past that the EPA estimates are not achievable in anything you or I drive? This is an absolute truth for those that do not know any better and unfortunately for us all, the non-hybrid pilots do not have a clue because they are unwilling, unable, or un-trainable, or are simply missing the tools to succeed in the art of exceeding the seriously under reported EPA estimates! Just thinking about the EPA changing their methodology to better mimic today’s habits makes me stand back and pause. Sure we have higher speed limits, more traffic, and faster accelerations, whatever. Does that mean the average non-hybrid pilot should drive above the speed limits? Drive foolishly in traffic jams? Drive with his or her foot into the floor thinking they are performing a 0 - 60 miles per hour test run for Car and Driver? This is the non-hybrid’s own Achilles’ heel. They have no way of knowing what they are receiving except when they drop $40.00 at the pump and say Oh my god, that is double what I paid just 2 years ago!

___Double-Trinity, in regards to Insight’s w/ MIMA, when the MIMA faithful begin to blow the lmpg posted below out of the water, I too will be impressed. Up to this point in time, I haven’t seen much of anything in terms of even 1 standalone tank let alone a years + worth! I will be meeting up with Rick Reese this weekend and have a good look at his MIMA modded Insight myself. I can see some instances where it would be very useful for increasing one’s FE BUT only in relatively limited situations. Until those tanks begin showing up, I hope you can understand my hesitancy in proclaiming that this is the end all of hybrid mods … I do wish I would have learned the P&G technique long ago when I still owned mine because the only P&G I ever did was from 0 - 30 miles per hour. I could peg the FCD at 150 + mpg over 20 + miles but who would drive over 2,000 + miles on a tank averaging 12 - 13 miles per hour? Nobody! If I would have known, I would have used a 31- 46 miles per hour or so range and hopefully pushed a nice 125 + mpg - 200 + mile segment out of her on my own FE testing segment/road? With that, my Insight’s tank after tank data came from 95 + % back and forth to work and that is the way I recorded it. Even my best segment was recorded from dead cold parking lot to parked in the drive after some 95 miles. If I would have cherry picked and instead took a particularly beautiful for Hypermiling, 34 mile segment of that commute with a flying start on either of the 2 particular days I hit that high, do you think I would have punched out > then the 117.2 mpg I received in the non-MIMA modded Insight? Who knows, maybe I will get another chance sometime in the future?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Is coasting OK? I mean on the tranny and all.
I am constantly shiftint to N whenever I peak a hill.
It really has improved my FE.

I'm testing some techniques on non-hybrids and something I started thinking of is RPmi (revolutions/mi). Helps me remember that low RPM in a low gear can be less FE than higher RPM in a high gear. The trick is to get where your going with the fewest cylinders firings.

RPmi = 60*RPM/miles per hour . . . . . . . .// To make the math simple just leave off the 60, that gives revolutions per KiloInch (RPKin).

...simple. Lower the RPMi the better... and neutral has great RPmi as long as your miles per hour is still high. As for the div0 problem, use limits. As MPH approaches zero, RPmi approaches infinity. Basically translate to "dead stop idling is bad"

Best commute RT = 27.5mi @ 90.5 MPG (sg2)
Best (non-trivial) tank = 665.5mi @ 72 MPG (fcd)
MPG Centurion - Hybridfest 2007 - Prius II - 26mi @ 106 MPG (sg2)
Dan <11011011> @ CleanMPG.com