Subaru have been researching lithium-ion for use in EVs for some time now. They now report having developed batteries capable of recharging to 90% full in only 5 minutes, with a predicted life of 100,000 miles.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8995780/

Early vehicles will be small city-vehicles with modest range (2008), but the plan is to make larger, longer range vehicles in future.

How can any fuel cell vehicle compete with an EV that recharges in 5 minutes?

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

Recharging in 5 minutes will require more power than is available to your house, so it's likely this feature will only be available at special 'electron' stations, but good news for travellers.

2001 Prius Photos       2005 Prius Photos
'97 Prius Simulation Prius inner workings

Subaru say charging will be possible using "the same type of AC outlet used for large home air conditioners."

But I think you're right, the 5 minute charge will require higher power and amperes than those dished out at home.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

I have an idea, maybe they could install a small gas powered generator in the trunk of this thing so you could charge the batteries as you drive. You'd never have to plug it in that way...

I would guess that if the power needs are pretty high, the five-minute charge could be accomplished easily at "filling stations" so that you could be back on the road quickly. The at-home charge may take longer but how often would you really need to go home for a 5 minute recharge. Most people stay home for longer than that in general. You would just have to plan your trips accordingly - piece of cake if you have a short commute which this car seems perfect for.

Yeah, let's do the math. The Subaru looks tiny, plus it only has a 50 mile range, so they say. The Honda EV+ was maybe a tiny bit larger, used heavier NiMH batteries (LiIon weighs half as much per kw/h) and had a 120 mile range. The Honda EV+ had a 26.2kw/h battery pack. If Subaru has, say, a 10kw/h battery pack thanks to it's shorter range and likely weighing less, and thus not needing to draw power as fast, then we can do the numbers from there.

A household 220 volt, 80 amp line has a max theoretical capacity of 17.6kw/h, although safely I think you'd really want to cut that in half. We're thus left with around 9 kw/h. That's only 0.75kw/h per 5 minutes. Even if we're really generous and say the 5 minute charge takes it from 25% to 75%, this still means you'd need to do 5kw/h in 5 minutes, which is 60kw/h. Even with an industrial 440v line, that's 136 amps. 440 volts at 136 amps is quite a lot of power draw. I would guess that such industrial chargers would only be at designated filling stations. For home use, even a 1-hour charge is fine for most folks.

To charge from 20 to 90% would be 7kw/h, which if it's a 1-hour home charge, that's real easy math since we just said it's 7kw/h. That's only 32 amps at 220v - less than most large home A/C units.

EDIT: You know, I'm not seeing anything about a 5 minute charger in that article. I see the part where they developed a 15-minute charger, but I don't see anything about a 5-minute charger. 5kw/h in 15 minutes on a 440v line brings it down to just 45 amps. That's much more ordinary amperage. They do say the batteries can accept a charge in as little as 5 minutes, but it doesn't actually they they have any infrastructure for that.

AZ:

Your math is right on the money.
Only need to consider the conversion losses.

No power converter is 100% efficient. There are also charging losses within the battery. Assuming an overall 80% efficiency (conservative) the charging time or the receptacle's wattage would have to increase an additional 25%

But your basic conclusion is correct. For very fast charge, a dedicated "electron-filling" station, would have to become available.

Of course, we smart and educated members of this forum, would do an overnight charge, when peak consumption is lower.

Hi All:

___I had this post all typed up a few days ago and lost this thread …

___But you can run a 3,000 W charger off a 120 V (220 would be better) line for 10 or so hours … 5,000 W at < 6 hours. 120 miles isn’t the best but with a few tricks, I am sure we could stretch that to 150 +

Hybrid Technologies to Begin Production of Electric Smart Car (Update)

___Here in Illinois, electricity costs $0.083/kWh. To charge a 30 kWh pack from 0% SoC would cost ~ $2.49 for that 120 - 150 mile range. A gallon of gasoline costs $2.78 as I past the Shell tonight. That would only take the gasoline based Smart ~ 45 miles (45 is the average of 37 mpg per the EPA or 52 mpg when pushed). A Diesel Smart owned and driven by one of this forums members has achieved darn near 95 mpg over a tank when taking it to its limits … Anyway, it costs ~ 3.5X’s as much in real $ terms to use gasoline in the 2-seater Smart then it does Electricity at 40 + mpg vs. 120 + miles per charge and Chicago’s electricity rates are not the cheapest in the nation …

___The question then becomes, how much for a 30 kWh Li-Ion pack that lasts longer then 125,000 miles, a AC Inverter/motor drive system capable of at least 80 miles per hour, and an ICE-less, US EPA and DOT qualified, 2-seater Smart car to go along with the propulsion package? If it comes in at under $17,500 for example, I could see that as being a real world option available to the masses today. Problem is, I do not see this becoming a $17,500 option anytime soon Mazda sources the Focus/Ranger 2.3 L ICE to Ford for ~ $1,200. I do not think that includes the tranny but it gives you a good idea as to what a 4 valve per cylinder ICE costs. Tranny, another $750 possibly? I cannot think of a motor/inverter/pack setup that can come close to this minimal OEM expense. What does a 30 kWh pack weigh and cost? How about a 45 or 60 kWh pack?

___As PO’s effects become more apparent, a much higher fuel cost could get many to consider the electric car again. The Smart is one very small automobile for said masses however? The 2-dr Smart weighs ~ 1,850 #’s with its std. gasoline based ICE IIRC. An alternative that may be a better “Fit” would be the Honda Fit/Jazz (2,150 #’s with its std. ICE) using the same electric propulsion setup. Maybe 100 miles range and 130 miles when pushed as it would definitely lose at least 15% in the range/performance envelope vs. the smaller Smart. The Fit/Jazz would be much more palatable to the average American consumer given its slightly larger size. If gasoline is sitting in the $4.00 - $6.00 range, I bet it would sell by the tens of thousands if the “Price is Right”? Where is Bob Barker when you need him most

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Your questions seem to be mainly about the cost and weight. I did a quick search and found on this page they state that Lithium Ion is about 150 watt-hours per KG and $200 per KG for very large industrial apps. Based on that, your 30 kw/h battery pack would be 200kg (441 pounds) and cost $40,000. The weight is no problem at all - in fact it's quite excellent if we ignore all the shielding and fire supression you'd need around a high volitility LiIon pack. The pricetag however is "pretendous".

As an aside however, here in Arizona one of the major carriers offers a time of use plan for electricity. It costs an extra $8 or $9/month to sign up, but when you do, it's something like $0.17 per kwh on peak and $0.039 off peak. If you charge at night, that's less than half the cost you'd be paying in Illinois, bringing it up to something like 100 miles per dollar for our fancy electric car. No liquid fuel car can touch 100 miles per dollar. No way, no how. Like you said though, the problem is the cost of the vehicle. You could buy a Prius and 8000 gallons of gas (enough for a half million miles of driving) for the estimated cost of a 30kw/h LiIon battery pack alone.

Those LiIon prices are for low volume, highly specialised markets. Mass produced lithium-ion is in a different league entirely.

The latest 18650 size LiIon cells (roughly AA sized) cost about $2.50 each when purchased in high volumes. (I think that's still quite a bit more expensive than they could be in the future, when you consider that another very mature battery technology, Zinc chloride, costs only about $0.25 for the same size cell.)

Each 18650 cell weighs about 45 grammes and the market leaders contain >200 Wh/kg. This means each cell can store 9 watt-hours.

As each costs $2.50 to purchase, the current cost per kWh is about $280 per kWh (though you need to buy a lot to get this price). Larger cells and mass production could see this price fall quickly.

A plug-in hybrid doesn't need a huge pack, and can make do with, maybe, 9 kWh of storage (the same amount as in the EnergyCS plugin Prius - and enough for about 40 miles per day EV range before the engine kicks in). The battery cost would then be only about $2,500.

Considering that's not a lot more than the ~$1,000 Toyota says the existing Prius NiMH pack costs, I think a fair number of people would be prepared to pay a $1,500 premium over a base model Prius to enjoy, as you say, 100 miles per dollar motoring for the first 40 miles of the day.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm