http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../70926011/1170


GM hybrid SUVs' fuel rating rivals Camry's
queryvar="gm,hybrid,suvs,fuel,rating,rivals,camrys ";
Richard Truett
and Leslie J. Allen
Automotive News
September 26, 2007 - 3:11 pm ET
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The hybrid versions of the full-sized 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon SUVs will deliver fuel economy gains of 50 percent in the city over the standard, non-hybrid models.

Tomorrow at the Texas State Fair, General Motors will announce the EPA fuel economy estimates of 21 mpg city and 22 mpg highway for the two-wheel drive versions of the Tahoe and Yukon hybrids.

Those fuel economy ratings are expected to give GM best-in-class fuel economy for large SUVs. The ratings also rival those of many midsize and large cars. For example, the 2WD Tahoe and Yukon match the four-cylinder Toyota Camry's 21 mpg city rating and beat the V-6 Camry's city rating by 2 mpg.

GM expects to sell 10,000 units per year, combined, of the hybrid SUVs. Prices won't be announced until closer to launch, but are expected to start in the low- to mid-$40,000 range.

The Tahoe and Yukon hybrids are the first vehicles to use the innovative Two Mode hybrid transmission GM developed with DaimlerChrysler and BMW. GM will also use the hybrid system in pickup trucks.

The EPA fuel economy figures are lower than some expected, but that's due to the agency's changing its test procedures to more accurately reflect real-world driving conditions.

The official EPA figures for both vehicles are 21 city/22 highway for 2WD models and 20 mpg city/20 mpg highway for 4WD models.

The Yukon and Tahoe hybrids are equipped with GM's cylinder deactivation system, which cuts off four of the V-8's cylinders when the vehicle reaches highway cruising speeds. They have lightweight body panels and wind-cheating bumper covers.

Two Mode Specifications
The 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid and GMC Yukon Hybrid tow like SUVs, but are no more thirsty than a midsized car.
Price: Low-to-mid $40,000 range
City/Highway EPA Ratings: 21/22 (two-wheel drive); 20/20 (four-wheel drive)
Engine: 6.0-liter, V-8
Horsepower: 332 hp
Torque: 367 pounds-feet
Transmission: Two Mode hybrid/four speed automatic
Batteries: 300-volt nickel-metal hydride for hybrid system; 12 volt for accessories
Towing capacity: 6,200 pounds (2WD); 6,000 pounds (4WD)
Curb weight: 5,541 (2WD); 5,787 (4WD)
Source: General Motors

capt = "The%202008%20Yukon%20Hybrid%20goes%20on%20sale%20 in%20early%20November."The two-mode hybrid is a full hybrid, meaning the Tahoe and Yukon can drive entirely on electricity. GM's two-mode hybrids can go up to 32 miles per hour using just electricity. At higher speeds, the two-mode system uses either all gasoline or a combination of fuel and electric propulsion.

GM, DaimlerChrysler and BMW invested $1 billion in the Two Mode system.

"This is something that really changes the game," said Gary White, GM vice president and vehicle line executive for full-sized vehicle development team.

Tahoe and Yukon hybrids are by far the most fuel-efficient large SUVs on the market. By comparison, the two-wheel drive 2008 Nissan Armada and Infiniti QX56 and the two-wheel drive Ford Expedition all get EPA ratings of 12 city and 18 highway. The EPA has not released figures for the 2008 Toyota Sequoia.

The Nissan and Infiniti ratings are for the 5.6-liter V-8 and the Expedition rating is for the 5.4-liter V-8. GM's Two Mode hybrid SUVs have a 6.0-liter V-8 engine.

GM is also planning to use the Two Mode system in its Silverado and Sierra pickups. The Dodge Durango will use the Two Mode system next year, and Mercedes-Benz and BMW will use their versions in the ML 450 and X6 SUVs.



Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

So what is the annual fuel consumption and costs:

Tahoe/Yukon:
14/20 (auto, 5.3L, 8 cyl) Yukon 1500 2WD
21/22 (hybrid) 2WD

A small business or contractor who drives in the City:

15000/14 = 1071 gal. @$3 -> $3,213
15000/21 = 714 gal. @$3 -> $2,142

$1,071 saved per year AFTER taxes

I don't know about you' all but that looks like: (1) annual insurance bill, (2) two car payments, (3) $1,400 of gross income. But it really looks sweet when you' re driving closer to 20,000 miles per year.

20000/14 = 1429 gal. @$3 -> $4,287
20000/21 = 952 gal. @$3 -> $2,856

$1,431 saved per year AFTER taxes

GM should be getting a good Federal tax credit to help offset some of the cost premium. But the individual shoppers will be looking at their cash flow, their operational costs, and saving $1000-$1400 of after tax money per year is a powerful argument.

One caution, as a first model year vehicle, an extended warranty might make sense. Consumer Reports has shown that the first model year of any vehicle tends to have the most problems and that was the pattern of the 2001 and 2004 Prius. The subsequent years of each model have been relatively trouble free.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

I think the point of comparing the Tahoe / Yukon Hybrid to the Camry is basically to point out that the consumer does not have to move from an SUV to a sedan to get decent fuel economy. Placing a V8 Tahoe Hybrid and a 4 cyl Camry side-by-side, it is hard to rationalize that they get similar gas mileage.

If the idea is to compare "like vehicle" the Tacoma comparison is not really apples - to apples either. Pickups and SUVs don't tend to overlap until you get to full size crew cab pickups. SUVs do tend to interact across size and value lines (mid-sized v large, large v luxury, etc). Better comparisons would be....

• Highlander V6 (18/24)
• Highlander Hybrid (28/25)
• 4Runner V6 (16/21)
• FJ V6 (16/20)
• Pathfinder V6 (15/22)
• Pilot V6 (16/22)
• FX35 (15/22)

Don't know EVERYTHING that's engine driven, but for the hybrid, the AC compressor is not and is capable of operating with engine off.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

Thanks, I didn't see that in the announcement.

I think you have a much better comparison with this list. The Camry seemed a bit of a stretch and I didn't catch it was also to suggest a sedan isn't the only alternative. Would the Ford Escape Hybrid also be in that list?

Excellent! I appreciate the clarification. As I pointed out before, getting a 150% improvement in City mileage is great progress and the way to go. I do look forward to test driving one when they get to Huntsville. In fact, I'll go by and see if they'll put me on a list to notify me when one shows up.

I've test driven a Ford Escape Hybrid and found it very nice. If it weren't for my wife's back problems, that would have been a viable alternative. Guess I'll have to test drive a Toyota Highland Hybrid now, which I'd skipped after testing the Ford Escape Hybrid.

AHHH choices!!!!

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

No. It's a question of capability. When I stated that SUVs tend to interact across segments like mid-size to large or large to luxury, the idea is that, someone who's requirements are on the low end of what could be handled by a full size SUV might drop down to a midsize. Likewise someone who's requirements are on the low side of medium might drop down to a small SUV. Very rarely do you see market interaction between a large SUV and a small SUV. A person who needs 7 passenger capability might move from a Tahoe to a Saturn Outlook, but not down to a Ford Escape. Won't even open the "towing & hauling" door. Otherwise the Highlander and the HiHy would also be peeled off of my list.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I read this on another forum and found it rather interesting...

So while the Tahoe Hybrid's 50% city improvement (14 to 21) is less than the Camry Hybrid's 57% (21 to 33), it saves more gas (97 gallons more over 15K miles).

It is not really fair to only compare city mileage if you want to claim an SUV is a viable alternative to a sedan. It is great that the city mileage is so much better, but until the highway mleage is also improved, GM should stick to comparing apples to apples.

But it is great that the tow ratings are fairly decent. Still a bit low for my needs, but decent.

I think Martin explained it well enough that even I could understand. The decision to compare to a Camry was also an attempt to compare the SUV to a sedan. This makes sense considering how much effort went into supporting the SUV market and fleets. But unfortunately I think it obscures better comparisons to equivalent vehicles instead of jumping between entirely different classes of vehicles. Worse, it invites a bright reporter looking up the Camry hybrid numbers and then the GM article looks like a fraud.

I had long ago realized that hybrid technology primarily solves the low-speed problem. Ordinary vehicles have terrible efficiencies at low speeds. That is why one figure of merit is the ratio of low speed MPG to high speed MPG. In this respect, the GM, two-mode hybrid meets the requirement and is in the same order of merit as the HCH and Camry hybrid.

Now as an engineer, I would have preferred to compare the Yukon/Tahoe to the GM equivalent 'Camry killer.' But I realize fratricide is not a good business plan. <grins>

One of the things I'd mentioned is my wife wants an RV. It may be a Yukon/Tahoe hybrid might be available in a mini-RV format or base for an RV add-on. If so, I could afford to get one for her. This way I won't have to 'buy an oil well' for a vehicle that my wife might use on short trips around town and the occasional, vacation. Of course I'd rather have a trailer but they don't make them sufficiently automated for my wife. <grins>

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

That's true but not really accurate or relevant. Almost nobody drives just in the City, never venturing onto the highways. To compare both realistically use the combined numbers. Still the Tahoe/Yukon 2-Modes do save more fuel in absolute terms than the TCH does.

This is a huge plus for all of us and for GM. These are not wannabe hybrids they are every bit as efficient as the TCH, HH, FEH and HCH.

In addition they address the one area where our driving fleet is the most inefficient. City driving. By boosting the City driving of the T/Y 2-Modes to be equal to Highway driving these save 40-50% of the fuel used by these vehicles every day they're on the road in the City....and the highway fuel economy is slightly better as a plus.

Kudos to GM. Now we just have to hope the GM buyers see the benefits as well.

Side note: If we all used the 'Usage' metric for measuring fuel consumption then the comparison between vehicles would be clear and simple

T/Y 2-M is....... 46.5 gal per 1000 mi driven
T/Y ICE is........ 62.5 gal ... 16 gal saved
TCH is............. 29.4 gal
Camry ICE is... 40.0 gal ... 10.5 gal saved
HCH is............. 23.8 gal
Civic ICE is...... 34.5 gal ... 10.7 gal saved

Lifetime fuel usage: 2.1 GPC ( 1.99 recent )

This is quite true, although only comparing CITY MPG isn't the WHOLE story.

Also... keep in mind, though you are SAVING more gas (97 galllons more in this example) in the Tahoe Hybrid vs. Tahoe than you are in the Camry Hybrid vs Camry, you are still USING MORE gas in the Tahoe Hybrid than you are in the Camry Hybrid (or even the Escape/Tribute/Mariner Hybrid, or Highlander Hybrid - if they suit your needs).

The CITY MPG for the new Tahoe IS remarkable, and I do hope future buyers see its value. Way to go, GM I just hope someone that NEEDS a CAMRY (or Camry Hybrid) doesn't now buy a Tahoe Hybrid instead - whereas before, they'd never even consider that option. Cost difference aside, it'll be tempting.

Steve

STOP terrorism - Drive a HYBRID

Vehicles:
350 miles a week ------------ 2006 HCH II, Magnetic Pearl, w/NAVI (born on May 25, 2006)
350 miles a month ---------- 2003 Mazda Tribute ES-V6
350 miles a year (for now) - 1986 Mercedes 560SL