Jason,
First of all, thanks for this relatively quiet and nicely designed site; the ceaseless and circuitous torture at the other sites are almost enough to undermine any good the Prius offers to society.
I had a question about your new driving technique: If , at times, you can't achieve that "no energy moving" state, is it still better to fiddle with the pedal until the engine alone is working (i.e. charging the battery while you "coast along")?
Also, I read with envy these mpgs you guys are talking about. I have averaged about 40-42 for the last three tanks. Most of that is short trips around town, but isn't that what "city" driving is? On a trip to San Fran (70-75 cruise control), I averaged 44.3. That's still alright, but, that's a long way from 60/51!
Thanks again for the great website![font=Impact][size=7][color=red]

You're welcome -- I'm glad you enjoy it.

The energy flow disengaging technique, I've found, works best when you cancel whenever possible, but when it is not to turn the engine on and attempt to charge the battery. This will speed engine warmup and decrease battery drain, both of which help to achieve cancellation when attempted.

Take a look at the mileage database for some figures. It's still relatively new so not completely reliable, but you'll get an idea. Once your car breaks in, mileage will increase -- as it will with temperature and ride time.

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Okay, now we're talking. My wife and I went for a cruise down the california coast to Laguna Beach. It was mainly freeway,with a little state highway and in-town driving. This time I kept to 60-65mph rather than 70-75mph and I used cruise control for most of it. Average MPG over 140 miles was 51.7! Outdoor temps were in the eighties.

Very pleased, but still wondering about these seemingly unattainable "city" numbers.

Cully,

I am beginning to form an opinion on why "city" numbers are so unattainable. When the battery is charged (and I assume this is the case during EPA testing), the car can operate for 10 or so minutes covering little distance without any noticable mileage drop. During long trips, however, the battery becomes drained and mileage suffers dramatically.

Since the EPA tests do not take a drained battery into consideration, they are therefore extremely optimistic in this sense.

If EPA estimates for city driving were 51mpg instead of 60mpg, there would be a 51mpg overall mileage rating -- something definitely attainable and extremely accurate.

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Hi Guys:

___When the 04 Prius was EPA tested, the Prius was running in EV mode for > 50% of the city test. The EPA’s city test is too short to take the fully charged to normal SOC pack out of the equation from my understanding.

___I know at least ~ 56.9 mpg is doable in an urban environment in 30 degree temps (using the game gauges again) but while doing so, I was driving well below real world speed limits and traffic conditions as I was driving in neighborhoods to get the speed and acceleration down to that level of mileage performance. The other Insighter I was with hit 57.x mpg via the instantaneous on his segment but of course the car had ~ 7 minutes of warm up time after my drive to help him along

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

My understanding is that with the EPA testing it was necessary that the SOC be the same at the beginning and the end of the test (how they assured that I have no idea), and thus shouldn't be a factor. I think what's much more a factor is the modest speeds attained and the relatively few stops.

My "City" mileage can vary dramatically on the route I take to and from work depending on the time of day/traffic. I often go in to work during the mid/late afternoon traffic, it takes at least 10 minutes longer for the 13 mile trip, I have more complete stops for lights that are cycling more frequently and more partial to complete stops for turning vehicles, idiots stopping for no apparent reason, people pulling in front of me forcing slow downs, etc. The result is more cycling b/w EV and ICE modes and less impressive MPG.

At the same time I, not infrequently, find myself traveling home after a shift at 2am. All those lights are flashing yellow or remain green much longer. I may only hit 2-3 lights and have no interference by other traffic. I maintain steady speed on cruise control at speeds from 35mph up to 62mph...I can often achieve a .3-.5mpg improvement over what I had going in or better.

Remember, the city test is a city route on a dynometer, not a city route with traffic and idiots pulling out in front of the tester with dramatic braking for that, etc. You will have times you will almost assuredly, on a given day/route, blow away the EPA numbers. Other times you'll be far below dependent on many factors. The thing is, you may get 63mpg one day, but if your consumption screen was showing 49mpg 250 miles into the tank and your route was only 10-15 miles you'll only appreciate a 1-2mpg gain, if that (sorry, too lazy to work the algebra).

Evan E. Fusco, MD
'04 Prius/BC moded to the T
'06 Highlander Hybrid Limited AWD w/NAV

Hi Efusco:

___I have not read that the 04 Prius’ SOC was the same at the end as it was in the beginning in either the EPA City or Hwy tests anywhere that I have seen to date. I have read in more then one government testing report that possible future changes to the EPA test cycle will be to extend the driving cycles so as to uncover the Hybrid packs influence on the city cycle in particular. Just about any automobile in existence can beat the EPA cycles in both light city and especially hwy cruising yet the Prius is missing the mark in real world city driving in particular. You just don’t see anyone even coming close to 60 mpg in an all-urban environment. This is not just the std. disclosure YMMV due to … that has been labeled on every vehicle sold in the states for decades but in addition to that is the Prius’ pack is inflating EPA city estimates vs. actual real world city mileages. If you have a link where the SOC was listed as equal in the beginning as end of the EPA test cycles, I would like to see it also.

___As for instantaneous readouts, since the 04 Prius’ pack is good for ~ 3 - 6 miles from an initial full SOC and w/ the EV button installed, you could actually get infinite miles/gallon over that 3 - 6 mile distance before the pack was unable to provide propulsion. That is on the instantaneous as well as real world. No fuel consumed over a given distance … Over time and a longer distance however, the real world fuel economy numbers speak for themselves and 60 mpg hasn’t been breached by anyone other then a few either short distance hops or by using the techniques used by the Insighter’s for maximizing mileage for years. That thread on maximum mileage over at Priusonline was a good one where the (2) 04 Japanese Prius drivers were adding some very welcome information to the mix.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Wayne,

I honestly don't think one can go 3-6 miles on the battery without a downgrade and a energy flow cancellation technique. I'm sure the battery would drain much too quickly.

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Hi Jason:

___I was only relating what some Prius owners/enthusiasts have mentioned in the Edmunds -> Prius forums in regards to a 3 to 6 mile range on batteries alone. This range would also take the pack to well below its BCM controlled lower limits which would not be healthy for longevity of the pack or the automobile either.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net