Thanks, I will try to get one since we have a '07 Camry and our '07 Tundra is on the way from the factory currently.

I went by the local Bill Pennys Toyota dealer and didn't see that brochure. They did have one for the Camry and Prius but the language has changed to, " The HV battery may have a longer coverage under emissions warranty. . . ." and refer to the owner's handbook. The same words were in the Prius and Camry booklets.

Thanks to Google, I was able to find a 2006 Prius brochure that has these words as a footnote. So I have enough to send a letter to Toyota asking for clarification. Regardless, I'll be at the Toyota Georgetown plant where they make Camry Hybrids Oct. 8th and I'll ask.

No doubt, the hybrid skeptics will jump on this. The only answer I have is to cite the fleet studies that show the batteries are exceeding "the laboratory bench testing." That pretty much leaves it up to actual vehicle testing.

The Google hits suggest this has been around for a while in other forums. So it may be instructive to look at what they'd posted.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

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I wouldn't worry too much. My HCH just hit 120k miles and is still going strong.

The info that you read was that Toyota bench tested the battery and hybrid system to 180,000 miles with no deterioration in performance. That is 20% longer than the longest warranty. Thus as a corporation they can safely say that there is little or no risk of liability for massive replacements during the warranty periods. It's good business practice as well as support for the sales and marketing efforts.

There is no statement that the life ends at 150,000 miles. Parallel issue. The Toyota warranty on the powertrain is 5 yr or 60,000 miles. Nearly everyone who's had a Toyota for a long time knows that the powertrain should last well into the 200K mi range with good maintenance.

I'm sorry but that is a misreading of the wording. The brochure wording is legalese, IMO, as CYA by the writer of the brochure.

He he.... the lab bench testing has to be extrapolations. Can't imagine them toyota engineers actually running their test for 150 000 mile. Plus, how do you really test a battery for 150 000 miles. Charge it for a while and then discharge it. At what speed,
are they discharging? Do they account for downhill or uphill during discharge?

Toyota is willing to warranty the battery for 150K in those states that are likely selling the most hybrids. Despite the claim, the battery life can probably last much longer. It is possible that Toyota is simply adjusting back their number. If on average their battery are made only to last for 150K, then the likelihood of car battery dying before 150K could well be above 50%. The frequency is too high and would be to costly for Toyota to replace if you include in the material, labor cost.

Of course they can actually run their test for 180,000 miles. I've been in Chrysler's Testing lab at Auburn Hills where they were running longevity tests on a dyno 24 hrs a day 7 days a week. There are also test track verifications where the cars are driven round and round and round the track 24 hours a day using teams of drivers.

50 mph x 24 hours a day x 200 days is 240,000 miles. Test complete.

In one year they could certainly test a fleet of test mules 150,000 to 200,000 miles.

The wording and the wrting in the subject brochure IMO was sloppy and likely too much influenced by some legal-minded whiz who didn't want to give an 'implied warranty' that the batteries will last longer than the 'official' CARB state warranty of 150,000 miles.

Would start with another lab report, from existing fleet performance studies of hybrid electric vehicles that actually put miles on the road:

http://avt.inel.gov/hev.html

miles - battery replacement - vehicle
164,687 - no - #1883, 2002 Prius
160,045 - no - #8976, 2002 Prius
126,185 - no - #2721, 2004 Prius
125,663 - no - #1052, 2004 Prius
69,938 - no - #5828, 2002 Prius
27,513 - no - #4279, 2002 Prius
17,490 - no - #8836, 2002 Prius (maintenance at 25,000 and 32,000 miles)

One might also read the Canadian experience:

http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Toyot...erformance.htm

km - battery replacement - vehicle
331,102 (206,938 mi) - no - 2001 Prius
106,851 (66,781 mi) - no - 2004 Prius

Engineering and science prefers open sources and reports with the detailed, backup data. We do this to avoid the problem of 'junk science' from which no organization is immune. Unlike marketing brochures, these are open sources, publications that list the authors and provide the source data.

BTW, the detailed summary reports from the fleet studies included both the beginning and ending battery capacity and miles per gallon. Although the battery capacity was lower, the mileage was barely impacted. What this means is the traction battery capacity is NOT the primary determinant of Prius MPG.

The reason becomes clearer when you look at the energy flows during Prius operation. With rare exception, the battery is not adding or drawing a significant amount of energy from the ICE and transaxle. It is really there for fairly short bursts and regenerative braking. The rest of the time, MG1 and MG2 are sourcing and sinking the electrical power needed to operate the car. . . . Neat!



I've left finding the detailed summary report as an academic exercise. The source URLs are provided and learning how to research facts and data is a useful, character building exercise. In the meanwhile, I'll ask Toyota America for a copy of the lab report . . . this is also research . . . something engineers and scientists do.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

There is also the possibility that the arrival of new battery technology will bring 'generic' after market lithion ion battery packs long before the nimh batteries in these cars wear out.

MM

Bob,
Since your last response was in direct response to a quote of mine, I am still getting the impression that you are trying to prove something to me. Maybe I am wrong, but that goes with what you have said in the PMs as well. As I have already said to you via PMs, I do not doubt that the battery life is not limited to 150,000 miles. I have read plenty of information on this topic over the past 16 months. However, I do understand why the question was asked. After all, the brochure distributed by Toyota says the battery life is 150,000 miles. Furthermore, I do not consider anybody that asks this question stupid, nor do I see any need to belittle anybody that asks this question.

I have twice tried to explain this to you in response to your PMs. However, I got the responses: "Curious, I've never understood this attitude." and "This still doesn't make a lick of sense. No new facts or data..." The irony here is what you chose to quote in your previous post.

Even if the post was directed at me, it is still nice to have more information directly in this thread and it is always nice to find an awkward place to insert one of your graphs.