What does GM have to say? - Page 3 - GreenHybrid

Delta Flyer · #21 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 09:47 AM

My workplace is reinventing itself - this is what I hope GM will succeed at doing in response to rising fuel prices and formidable competitors. I hope some of the things martinjlm hints at behind the scenes will succeed.

The old saying: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" is bad advice in today's business world.

Hot_Georgia_2004 · #22 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 12:29 PM

On one hand I'll have to give GM benefit of the doubt. I do believe the EV car was a technical success and people would buy them like hotcakes. But not the $15,000 lead-acid battery.

There's no way I'd have bought my own Civic in an EV version if it cost $38,000 and had to spend another $15,000 down the road for battery replacement.

On the other hand there is no reason GM crushed those amazing vehicles.

Yesterday on a popular Nat'l radio show there was an interview with Rick Wagoner, GM's chairman about his company. 90% of what he had to say absolutely glorified the Hotdog-baseball-apple pie and SUV slogan.

He went on and on multiple times of how the new Yukon, Escalade, Suburban and all other large GM vehicles is so much better than any Japanese vehicle in all areas. He mentioned there are additionally more improvements coming along for the next generation SUV's and he is much exited about that. He was very specific in targeting his SUV's

To be fair I arrived to work and couldn't hear all of the interview but his continuous glorifying of these vehicles literally had me yelling at him. After at least 20 minutes of parading these vehicles he made a footnote of GM makes some 30MPG cars.

Without exception 100% of my neighbors wish to God they hadn't bought their SUV for the cost of feeding it. Their fuel bill is now a major budget item and is why I'm against pushing those vehicles.

The reason I got so angry at Rick Wagoner is that I do believe in hotdogs, apple pie and the American car company but people like himself is what will close that industry. Quite pathetic I thought.

AshenGrey · #23 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 01:38 PM

I would think that an EV Civic could have a perfectly long battery life IF it's controller treated 20% as "empty" and 80% as "full", like the hybrid controller does.

Archslater · #24 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenGrey

I would think that an EV Civic could have a perfectly long battery life IF it's controller treated 20% as "empty" and 80% as "full", like the hybrid controller does.

Yes but the Civics battery only offers about 20% of the car's power, and that is just part time. It would have to be many times larger to be practical.... I'm talking zero trunk space and $10,000 replacement costs. If the controller doesn't allow the battery to be emptied as in current hybrids, you are paying for much more capacity than you will use.

nbalthaser · #25 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenGrey

I would think that an EV Civic could have a perfectly long battery life IF it's controller treated 20% as "empty" and 80% as "full", like the hybrid controller does.

you'd be cutting 40% of the battery capacity if you did this. you'd either have to have 40% more batteries to make up the range hit or have a 60mile max range which would probably not be acceptable to most americans.

Delta Flyer · #26 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hot_Georgia_2004

....Yesterday on a popular Nat'l radio show there was an interview with Rick Wagoner, GM's chairman about his company. 90% of what he had to say absolutely glorified the Hotdog-baseball-apple pie and SUV slogan.

He went on and on multiple times of how the new Yukon, Escalade, Suburban and all other large GM vehicles is so much better than any Japanese vehicle in all areas. He mentioned there are additionally more improvements coming along for the next generation SUV's and he is much exited about that. He was very specific in targeting his SUV's

To be fair I arrived to work and couldn't hear all of the interview but his continuous glorifying of these vehicles literally had me yelling at him. After at least 20 minutes of parading these vehicles he made a footnote of GM makes some 30MPG cars.....

Hot_Georgia,

This is the approach that got GM in their current situation - no adjustment or redefinition.

I'm imagining if it was Lee Iccocca, he would be in commercials selling the entire line, probably emphasing neglected products to at least generate favorable PR that GM is changing, trying, adapting to customers and the higher fuel prices. Sadly, they are targeting the same products at the consumer, disregarding if it fits the times or giving the impression there is a "new GM". Instead, the commercials appeal to insecurity/status, vanity, insensitity to others, aggression, driven, being big (not all of these points in the same ad....). That seems to be an accurate observation of those commercials. Kind of scary that a sizable target audience wants to be like that rather than Mother Theresa or the Dali Lama for instance.

At the end of the day, the neighbor's of Hot_Georgia's are saddled with payments and gas bills asking: "what was I thinking?" - at least privately. Are they going to do it again? Sales indicate a slow but significant change in what drivers buy. You not only want to make a sale, but have your customers happy over the life of the product.

I totally understand why Kirk Kevorkian is unhappy with Rick Waggoner's approach - I don't want GM to die either.

Chilly · #27 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkard

Well, I thought it was a lovely dance, with fancy footwork. I especially liked:

"In fact, GM offers more vehicles that get 30 mpg or better EPA highway mileage than any other automaker. More than Toyota. More than Honda. More than Nissan."

Now, the Honda & Acura product lines consist of is 16 models: Insight , S2000, Fit, Civic , Accord, CRV, Element, Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline, RL, TL, TSX, RSX, MDX, and RDX. Only Insight, Fit, Civic, Accord, TSX and RSX--6 models--get 30 or more MPG.

So, when you say that all of GM offers more 30+ mpg models than all of Honda, you're saying GM offer more than 6 cars.

Nissan's product line is 18 models, including Infiniti's 6.

Toyota offers 27, including Lexus' 8 and Scion's 3.

GM offers 59 models, including Pontiac: 8, Chevrolet: 20, Buick: 5, Saturn: 5, Cadillac: 9, GMC: 5, Hummer: 3, Saab: 4.

Out of 59 models, GM brags about offering more than 6 that get 30+ mpg. It sounded good in the context of the article, though.

According to The Auto Channel and my handy calculator, Fit is 2% of their YTD sales, Accord 24%, Civic 22%, Odyssey 12%, Pilot 10%, CRV 10%, Element 4%, Ridgeline 4%, RSX 1%, TL 5%, TSX 3%, RL 1%, MDX 3%, and all the others are less than 1% each. That means that 52% of all Hondas & Acuras sold in the last year have an EPA rating of 30mpg or higher.

What percentage of GM vehicles sold in the last year were rated for 30+ mpg? How many GM vehicles get 50+ mpg? Zero. 45+? Zero. 40+? Zero. The highest-mileage American car I could find was a 35mpg Pontiac.

The first part of the qoute in your post is very interesting. While numbers and data don’t lie, the way the data is presented can lead one to draw very different, and sometime misleading, conclusions. Based on the number you gave I decided to dig a little deeper. What I found was rather interesting.

First let’s quantify 30+ mpg. For this discussion I am going to take 30+ mpg to mean the average of the city and highway EPA number. Not just the highway EPA numbers since most Americans drive a combination of both. This data is pulled directly from the www.fueleconomy.gov report for 2006 vehicles. When counting the number of models I include the trans type/speeds and engine types for each model as well. For instance the Chevy Cobalt has a 4 speed Automatic and a 5 speed manual. This counts as 2 models not 1. If each tranny had a 2.0 and a 2.3 engine option that would then count as 4 models.

Below is a list by manufacturer that shows the number of models available vs number of models over 30+ combined. I have listed Divisions separately rather than combine them under a single manufacture like Ford or GM. With GM and Ford having so many cross over models, it’s easier to list them separately. The list was then sorted by the percentage of vehicle over 30+ vs. vehicles made. I have this in Excel spreadsheet that also lists which models get over 30+ and gives their average combined mpg if anyone knows how to link to it let me know. I have also provided a link to the data set I used to compile this list.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2006.pdf

Manufacturer Total 30+ Percentage

Scion 6 4 66.67%

Mini 8 3 37.50%

Honda 24 6 25.00%

Volkswagen 33 6 18.18%

Toyota 47 6 12.77%

Pontiac 26 3 11.54%

Acura 9 1 11.11%

Hyundai 29 3 10.34%

Kia 21 2 9.52%

Saturn 12 1 8.33%

Ford 66 4 6.06%

Mazda 34 2 5.88%

Lexus 18 1 5.56%

Nissan 39 2 5.13%

Suzuki 23 1 4.35%

Mitsubishi 28 1 3.57%

Mercedes-B 51 1 1.96%

Chevrolet 111 1 0.90%

Aston Martin 6 0 0.00%

Audi 32 0 0.00%

Bentley 4 0 0.00%

BMW 57 0 0.00%

Bugatti 1 0 0.00%

Buick 15 0 0.00%

Cadillac 25 0 0.00%

Chrysler 33 0 0.00%

Dodge 52 0 0.00%

Ferrari 6 0 0.00%

GMC 67 0 0.00%

Hummer 2 0 0.00%

Infiniti 14 0 0.00%

Isuzu 9 0 0.00%

Jaguar 16 0 0.00%

Jeep 21 0 0.00%

Lamborghini 6 0 0.00%

Land Rover 6 0 0.00%

Lincoln 9 0 0.00%

Lotus 1 0 0.00%

Maserati 3 0 0.00%

Maybach 3 0 0.00%

Mercury 18 0 0.00%

Porsche 20 0 0.00%

Rolls-Royce 1 0 0.00%

Saab 22 0 0.00%

Spykr 3 0 0.00%

Subaru 33 0 0.00%

Volvo 38 0 0.00%

So while, GM makes the statement that it has more 30+ mpg vehicles, GM isn’t even in the top 10 when it comes to the percentage of vehicle it fabricates with a combine mpg of 30+. The “We have more 30+ models” is misleading if you look at the scope of the data. When you look at combined mileage I am only counting 5 total vehicles for GM. That means a lot of the model that they claim get 30+ are barely getting over 30 highway. Which is why those models are dropped when looking at combined or median mileage. In this case Toyota, Honda, and even Volkswagen make more vehicles with a combined mpg of 30+. But hey to GM’s credit they at least make more 30+ vehicles than Spyker, Porsche, Maybach, and Maserati combined!!

martinjlm · #28 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkard

...What percentage of GM vehicles sold in the last year were rated for 30+ mpg?

For Chevrolet, the largest volume car brand sold in the US, the number would be 90%

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkard

How many GM vehicles get 50+ mpg? Zero. 45+? Zero. 40+? Zero. The highest-mileage American car I could find was a 35mpg Pontiac.
....

Those numbers are all correct. Those same numbers for other automakers would be in one or two range. The percentage of their volumes that are sold with those types of stickers would also be pretty low.

Peace,

Martin

martinjlm · #29 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeze

From the GM article:

Then why the heck is GM so sue-happy over California's emisions standards? Also, I believe the Chevy Aveo is a Korean model brougt in to satisfy CAFE standards. Does anybody know if GM did any design on the Aveo at all?

It's more of a legal issue than a technical issue. CARB is trying to expand their authority beyond what was legally set by the Federal Gov't. If that goes unchallenged, then it sticks. Sort of like if your neighbor decides he wants to set up a swing set that extends into your yard and you decide not to challenge it. CARB, California Air Resource Board, has authority to regulate issues directly related to Air Quality. Only the Federal Government can set Fuel Economy standards. This was made clear in the legislation that empowered CARB.

The way that Europe regulates FUEL ECONOMY is to limit CO2 emissions. California Bill AB1493 seeks to limit CO2 emissions. It is a fuel economy bill. Let me remind you that only the Federal Gov't can regulate fuel economy. By the way, GM is not the only manufacturer filing suit against AB 1493. I think that Toyota and Honda are both also part of the suit.

As for the Aveo, yes, GM North America designers have been intimately involved in the design of the product that is sold in North America. It's part of being a global company.

Peace,

Martin

martinjlm · #30 (**permalink**) 07-13-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote: