To answer this question "When is a hybrid NOT environmentally responsible?", it is every time.

Why would I say this? Think of it this way, "Subway" advertises that a typical cold cut sub is 400 cals. But in actuality it is over 1300 cals after you add cheese, mayo, etc.
This is the same with Hybrids also, you are driving and using the same gas the person next to you is using. Your car is still producing emissions. In the winter months it "can" idle while you wait for the light change. Hybrids shouldn't be used as a generic term for "diet car".

Our real approach will always be urge local governments to provide free public transportation like in some European countries, fund additional research for alternative fuels that do not cause bad emissions and, purchase hybrid fleet based cars from GM and Ford.

I really doesn't matter what one needs a car or truck for. They shouldn't need to justify why either. Like Bob Wilson stated, people all need vehicles for different purposes.

I'd better be on Candid Camera if I ever see a Red Toyota Prius pull up to my house when it is on fire and four men jump out with a green garden hose....

As to the comments about the Lexus LS 600h, I would definitely purchase one of those. It is a really nice car. But then so is the GMC Yukon Hybrid. I would want the AWD on the Yukon for Winter months and hauling equipment. Something my HCH can only do in limited size and weight...

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1987 Chevy Spectrum - 200,000+ Miles -Junk Yard
1994 Honda Civic DX Coupe - Truck Hit it
1998 Acura 2.3 CL - End of Lease
2002 Acura TL 3.2 - End of Lease
2004 Acura MDX - End of Lease
2007 Mercedes ML350 -Lemon
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid w/Navi - Active

My car does not ever idle at lights, even in winter.
I take steps to keep my baby warm.

My car doesn't pollute either.
I run it in the garage with the doors closed, and it hasn't killed the Canary I keep in there for just such purposes.

I always get my Subway without Mayo or other dressings.
I think the veggies and a little bit of herbs at the right amount of flavor.

Diet car. I like that. I'm going to use that.
-J

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1987 Chevy Spectrum - 200,000+ Miles -Junk Yard
1994 Honda Civic DX Coupe - Truck Hit it
1998 Acura 2.3 CL - End of Lease
2002 Acura TL 3.2 - End of Lease
2004 Acura MDX - End of Lease
2007 Mercedes ML350 -Lemon
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid w/Navi - Active

better yet, a horse drawn fire WAGON may pull up after we run out of fuel...

I was pointing out that a Toyota Prius won't help us with actual work.

We need to have safety equipment that does take advantage of Alternative Fuels (not just Hybrids but CNG, etc)

We also can't build new buildings without the equipment we have now. Though we can make this type of equipment more friendly by having it use AF.

But mocking other people because they choose to purchase a Hybrid Tahoe or a non Prius/HCH is not helping either.

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1987 Chevy Spectrum - 200,000+ Miles -Junk Yard
1994 Honda Civic DX Coupe - Truck Hit it
1998 Acura 2.3 CL - End of Lease
2002 Acura TL 3.2 - End of Lease
2004 Acura MDX - End of Lease
2007 Mercedes ML350 -Lemon
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid w/Navi - Active

I think this is a question of semantics.

If you are going to state that hybrids are NEVER environmentally responsible, then it is also NEVER environmentally responsible to use any electricity, take a shower, eat meat, eat some plants, drink alcohol, use a fireplace, use gas heat, etc. Everything we do has an effect on the environment. This is also true for plants, insects, fish, birds and animals. The difference is, all those species don't cause an imbalance the way humans do. Our advances in technology are grand, but they come at a price. It is time to weigh that price against the technology.

You used the Subway subs analogy. Subway is correct in that their subs only have 400 calories. And yes, if one adds mayo, cheese, etc., the calories increase. However, if one adds mustard instead of mayo and has no cheese, the calories remain at 400, and this can become part of a low-cal diet. A hybrid is like that low-cal sandwich. We could buy a non-hybrid car or SUV and use more gas, but we can buy a hybrid and use less. The sandwich still has calories, just like the hybrid still uses gas - but now, both are in lower amounts compared to their "high-fat" versions.

Hybrids don't eliminate the effect on the environment, but they help reduce it. You wrote that we are "driving and using the same gas as the person next to you". That's true. But the goal is to use LESS gas. The goal of environmentalism is reduce and reuse. If we can reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using a hybrid, then that makes it more environmentally sound.

And this is where semantics come in.

Is it environmentally responsible? If taking those words too literally, the answer is no. But it is also environmentally irresponsible to use a computer to type these words! As I don't prefer to sit in a cold, dark cave, clothing myself with only fallen leaves and eating dead roots, I will have some sort of effect on the environment. To reduce that effect, I drive a hybrid.

So perhaps a better way to phrase the original question is if there is ever a time (or vehicle) where a hybrid would have no affect on decreasing carbon emissions (compared to the non-hybrid version).

I bought my FEH on Nov. 10, 2007. I recently did a cross-country trip (San Francisco area to the Chicago area). From Western Wyoming to my home in CA, I travelled in frigid -9 degree weather and through heavy falling snow in the Lake Tahoe. In the mountains, the top speed was only 30 miles per hour and the 4WD was used. On the flat roads, the average speed was 75 miles per hour. Despite all of these conditions, I still averaged 27.5 mpg!

I will agree with you on that. We can definitely reduce our harm by producing more environmentally efficient equipment. (Again I state equipment because its not just cars)

In a way the Subway analogy makes a perfect example; The base sandwich does contain 400 calories. But how many people actually design their sandwich to adhere to the "standard caloric version"? Some people like extra cheese, double meat, speciality sauce, etc. In terms of translating that to a Hybrid, one must assume a certain amount of responsibility or "base sandwich" to achieve the greatest mileage on a tank of gas. This could mean driving slower, driving without A/C or Heat, no radio, all windows up, only driving on bright sunny days with minimal traffic or driving on completely flat land. In actuality we cannot meet all of those requirement, but can with some. Not many people could stay home and work if it is raining outside or some people who have kids cannot keep the AC or heater off on extreme days.

We all have a diet car (Hybrid), it is by definition better for the environment just like diet coke is better for you. But remember diet coke isn't really that good for you either

Well sorry, all this food talk is making me hungry, I think I need to go to Subway
(How's that for in forum advertisement? ) Hehehe....

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1987 Chevy Spectrum - 200,000+ Miles -Junk Yard
1994 Honda Civic DX Coupe - Truck Hit it
1998 Acura 2.3 CL - End of Lease
2002 Acura TL 3.2 - End of Lease
2004 Acura MDX - End of Lease
2007 Mercedes ML350 -Lemon
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid w/Navi - Active

When they make the Viper in a Hybrid, that would be the guzzler

I think the issue has two aspects. One is to make more fuel-efficient options for vehicles that people need to use, regardless of what type. This is the good case for a 20 MPG hybrid truck as opposed to it's 15 MPG counterpart. The other issue lies in the attitudes of the owners - why we buy the type of car we do (i.e. why does a $50K+ Lexus hybrid exist). One could argue that someone who could afford that Lexus, but opts for say a Camary Hybrid, has done a good thing. Someone with a big SUV opting for an Excape hybrid - same. There's more than a few threads on the merits of choosing a Lexus hybrid over it's normal counterpart, but that's only true if you proceed with the assumption the person was going to buy that type of car anyway (so at least they opted for a hybrid).

In the end they're all good incremental steps in the right direction. Some folks take larger steps than others.

*** Retired after 65,000 outstanding miles ***

This, to me, is the biggest statement made in this thread.

When the Prius first came out, I thought the idea was great, but I immediately followed that thought with, "I wish the car manufacturers would make a hybrid SUV." This is because I drove an SUV. I like an SUV and I utilize the space of an SUV (that is, I don't just drive one because I'm "higher up"). When Ford came out with the FEH, I was very happy and, while it took a few years, I finally got one of my own. I have the benefits of an SUV, but I get better mileage, which in turn helps the environment - I'm happy. Similarly, a person who's always dreamed of owning a luxury car like a Lexus might finally have the $$ to get one. But instead of the normal Lexus, he/she gets a hybrid version. The person has the luxury that was desired, but gets better mileage and helps the environment. In other words, a hybrid helps a person drive the vehicle he/she wants while still reducing consumption and pollution.

It's like using the long-lasting lightbulbs. Those bulbs still burn energy, but they consume far less of it and last far longer. We get the light we need, but with far less consumption.

And this ties into the sentence I quoted. A hybrid is just part of the solution. Recycling as much as possible, using the longer lasting, more energy efficient bulbs, turning down the heat, using less hot water, driving less, etc., all are part of the solution. When we absolutely need to drive - we use a hybrid. When we need the light, we have an energy efficient bulb. When we need heat, we wear a sweater so we can still keep the thermostat lower. All of these steps together are what ultimately helps decrease our "carbon footprints". Modern technology, like hybrids and energy efficient appliances and lights, allow a real "have your cake and eat it too" scenario. We can consume less, yet still have all the items we need. To me, this is the best use of technology.

I bought my FEH on Nov. 10, 2007. I recently did a cross-country trip (San Francisco area to the Chicago area). From Western Wyoming to my home in CA, I travelled in frigid -9 degree weather and through heavy falling snow in the Lake Tahoe. In the mountains, the top speed was only 30 miles per hour and the 4WD was used. On the flat roads, the average speed was 75 miles per hour. Despite all of these conditions, I still averaged 27.5 mpg!