1stpik,

I appreciate your taking the time to respond and in taking a more neutral position. My animosity in responding to your first post was based on the fact that you stated several opinions as in the vein of fact, and that always tickles my spine. If my tone was a bit "testy", I apologize for that. I do appreciate the clarifications you have provided.

We all have anecdotal evidence wrt cars and trucks in that era. People tend to remember the Ford, GM, and Chrysler product stories more so than the foreign car stories. My theory on this is that it is because there were waaay more domestic cars on the road back then, so there are going to be more stories. There are also going to be more good stories, but since good is expected, the bad experiences are longer remembered. During that same time there were stories about Toyopet engines and transmissions failing prematurely and Toyopets, Datsuns, and Hondas rusting out at an astonishing rate. There were just not enough of them in commerce to make a dent on the consumer mindset. Obviously Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have significantly improved over time. But so have Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Unfortunately for the domestic manufacturers, evidence of that improvement is only recently starting to take hold.

.....


Yes, that is a significant part of the message, but it isn't the only part of the message. The thing is, it is very difficult for the buying public to clearly understand how much of the nation's economy hinges on downstream employment to support the supply base of the industry, as well as small businesses in the geographic areas where vehicles are designed, engineered, tested and manufactured. Sadly, domestic automakers have had to increasingly go overseas for supply of components and for assembly of some vehicles in order to compete with foreign manufacturers who are not compelled to accept the union level wages and health care and retirement commitments that domestic automakers have to balance. But, as my original post pointed out, the majority of vehicles sold in the US are still built in the US at higher wage rates.

As for the "Domestic products only" signs, yeah, that happens. And if it was the only thing that was going on, I'd be concerned. And I'd probably be working in another industry. But I would also point out that recent quality awards and positioning by domestic brands like Buick, Saturn, and Ford indicate that domestic car companies are not just producing the "same unreliable product". The improvements have obviously not been fast enough or significant enough to move the public mindset, but on objective measure, they are there.

One thing that Americans tend to not be fully aware of is the stage of global competition. If you stuck pins in the globe to denote where various manufacturers have manufacturing presence, two things would be apparent.

1. All the larger companies, be they American, Japanese, or European, have plants in all the competitive regions of the globe. Everybody's building plants in China, Brazil, India, Russia, and Eastern Europe. Thing is, all these plants are to satisfy significant growth in demand in those areas.
2. The one place where this is not true is Japan. Japan is a hyper-protective economy. US automakers are not able to build plants or sell much product in the market because the government is aggressively protecting their domestic industry. Something we would never do here. So the Japanese companies can use their protected profits in Japan to fund expansion elsewhere in the world.

Now, DESPITE the fact that Toyota, Honda, and Nissan receive significant support from their government, GM is still leading the industry in just about every other area of the world. Much press was made when Toyota passed GM in global sales in 2006. Three things that were not as widely reported were that

1. Of the 10 top vehicle markets in the world, GM was the sales leader in 9 of them. The 10th (3rd largest market) was Japan, where GM is severely restricted by government policy from selling product.
2. The margin by which Toyota led was significantly less than the margin of vehicles by which Toyota outsold GM in Japan. Also the margin included some swings in "affiliated sales". Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles that used to figure in the GM tally now figure in the Toyota tally.
3. GM retook the lead in the 2nd quarter of 2007.

Then using your own definition of electricity being an alternative fuel, you would stipulate that GM's launching the Equinox fuel cell fleet on the East Coast is at least as innovative as Honda launching an FCX fleet on the West Coast? Especially since the operating range is 11% greater than the Honda?

Bottom line, I am glad that you at least care about how the industry is going. Obviously I do too, since it is the industry on which I've cemented my career. Hopefully you can recognize that it is possible to like and respect Honda (a very good company with a very solid product) without resorting to hatred for and distortion of facts around competing companies.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

Thank you Martin.
You make some very good points.

I don't think an EV is prohibitively expensive to produce over a regular gasoline vehicle, at least not today.

The market have changed quite a bit since the 1990's regarding EV's.

I've recently watched an advertisement on TV of a beautiful new car driven full throttle, zooming down the road and sliding sideways through water, driven by a beautiful brunette as the ad proudly showcases "All this and 30MPG."

How much better to watch and hear:
"All this fun and not a single drop of gasoline!"

GM, Ford and Chrysler all stuck in the same fabled hydrogen dream.
We'll be paying $5 or $6/g and still hear rumours about hydrogen promises. "Someday"
Unfortunatly it will likely be a foreign (Not domestic) MFG which will offer a real alternative fuel choice in a time we need it most. I beleive that time is approaching fast. That is my entire rub with it all.

Peace,
-Steve

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

I keep wondering, how can it be that the big two Japenese auto manufacturers are much more attuned to what I want and expect in a car than all the others? Why did American manufacturers keep producing power window switches that are a strangulation hazzard to children until heightened public awareness of the problem forced them to change (whilst the Japanese ones anticipated the problem well in advance)? Why do American cars have English wording on controls when symbols transcend language? Why do American car manufacturers invest more in simply moving metal off the lots with deep discounts and incentives than in fostering long-term brand loyalty? The cost to the consumer for a cheap American car is unbelievably cheap core components that are designed to fail and cars that sometimes suddenly combust while parked in their garages. Both provide a miserable ownership experience. Why is it that despite the Toyota Camry being the best-selling car in the USA, and the Honda Civic the best-selling car in Canada (10 years in a row), has the proud American car manufacturers not learned a single thing from their Japanese competition?

You know what? Let GM beat their chest over innovation. Let them bring the Volt. I would still not buy a GM during the rest of my lifetime because every time I experience one -- from renting a vehicle or being a passenger to listening to other's anecdotes -- it is always a disappointment. The same goes for the other American brands. One single success doesn't reverse a history and culture of shame.

The Japanese product is better designed, North American auto workers building Japenese vehicles are happier and more motivated to do their best and to contribute ideas and to resist temptation to join a union, and customer satisfaction levels with Hondas and Toyotas are higher. These are vehicles the way they should be. The only reason to stray from a Japanese brand is out of boredom with the good.

I think it's all about Asia when it comes to the hybrids. China is going to be hurting for Oil real bad!

I can't help but think that the problem with much of US big business is the 'vision thing'; the bean-counters require a virtual 'sure-thing' return on investment before commiting dollars to a new project; since people who lack vision can only use previous experience as a guideline, and 'informed risk taking' is rarely rewarded when millions of dollars are at stake, the same old patterns and habits of thought end up being applied to a new technology project, with the results that are predictably the same.

In the case of the EV1, it seems GM did not veer from the project's initial proposal guidelines; and when CA renegged on their end of the deal, GM ignored customer satisfaction and the potential of a new market and scrapped it, just like they said they were going to in the first place.

I keep coming back to the example set by Apple: they didn't invent the MP3 player, but instead created a vision for how such a device could fit into a customer's life-style - heck, they virtually created the life-style advantages of a portable MP3 player before there was any market. They had a vision for their product, how it would enhance a potential customer base, they created the buzz surrounding the potential for the product ahead of time, and then marketed the product accordingly. The public bought into the vision, and the rest is history.

One could look at the EV1 project as a test-bed of technology with a future customer base, out in the real world; where GM failed was in grasping the vision for what the product could offer their potential customer base in terms of lifestyle advantages; they failed miserably given the opportunity they had: a new technology whose bugs had mostly been worked out (by the investment of millions of dollars), a proven satisfied customer base, and no competition. The future was theirs for the taking. The real lesson for future leaders of business is the market potential that GM lost, by not having the vision and courage to create the market demand ex nihilo, as Apple did.

~Joe

1998 VW Jetti TDI owner

Any prototype is too expensive to build. Is Honda or BMW leasing their new hydrogen vehicles at a loss? Of course! Your references to GM licensing their technology is a condemnation of their pathetic attempts at placating the public with lip service. GM cannot make a reliable vehicle, let alone a reliable alternative fuel vehicle. Two mpg better for a "hybrid" IS rediculous and an insult to true hybrids. To call 2 mpg better a hybrid is a sorry attempt to make money off the name recognition of the word hybrid and the time-proven technology of Totoya and Honda. If GM can make hybrid bus fleets, why not a hybrid vehicle with reasonable mileage? Why 10 years? Why only 2 "hybrids" with a 2 mpg advantage or hybrid SUVs that are still good for 21 mpg at best and sticker for over $50,000? Despite the fact that I have family who have retired from engineering domestic vehicles I am still disgusted by the feeble attempts at technological advancement by the big 3 and the excuses made for them.

Well said.......... medicmike..........

Well stated.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

Pinto: Yep, that was a mistake. I owned one of those.
Chrysler Minivan: I vaguely remember that one
GM Pickups: Anybody remember the Dateline footage where they had to rig the vehicle with explosives to actually get the tanks to explode? And got caught doing it?

A few you didn't mention.....
Audi 500: Accelerator pedal either sticking or "mysteriously engaging" causing unintended acceleration. Root cause appears to have been designing the brake and accelerator pedals too close together. Pretty much caused Audi to exit the US market for several years. Eery in its resemblance to a very recent Toyota recall of 367,000 vehicles to repair carpet covers that could cause the accelerator to stick.

Toyota engine class action suit: Involving 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Could result in owners paying thousands to rebuild or replace engines.

Recalls: Up until the recent Ford recall, these are the most recalled vehicles in 2007:
VW Beetle, Toyota Tundra/Sequoia, Jeep Liberty, Nissan Altima, Hyundai Tucson, Jeep Wrangler/Dodge Nitro, Suzuki Forenza/Reno, VW Passat, Lexus ES350, Chrysler Sebring

Bottom line......You pick the automaker and I can find something great to say about them, or I can find enough dirty laundry to raise eyebrows. The relevant thing is, what is the quality of the product offered today? I would say that for ALL the major automakers, each has pockets of expertise and pockets of "challenge".

If that's what you think I said, then you misread what I wrote.

No argument with that. It is, however, misplaced wrt the point I was making about the downstream impact on the economy having more people IN ANY CAPACITY, SKILLED / UNSKILLED / PROFESSIONAL / AND ENTREPRENEUR employed as support systems for large industry. Detroit has one of the most advanced health care communities in the country and is the home of Blue Cross / Blue Shield. Why? It grew as the auto industry grew and needed health care for employees and the communities that grew around them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by medicmike If anything, myself and many of my acquiantances avoid domestics because of the entire "our country needs you, buy domestics to support the USA," amongst other reasons. I do support U.S. workers, through Hondas made in Marysville, OH and a Civic admittedly made in Japan. Your wages aren't my problem.

It's that same approach that has border areas like Michigan, New York state, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc facing growing concern about people crossing the border into Canada for cheaper prescription medications and health care. And that has seen an explosion in foreign citizens taking advantage of our excellent health care educational institutions and shortages of qualified medical professionals. But, if course, your wages aren't MY problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by medicmike Weren't those awards for initial quality and 3 year reliability? If a manufacturer can't produce a vehicle that has a high level of initial quality and can last for at least 3 years with few if any significant problems, they do not deserve to be in business. What really matters is 5-10 year reliability, 200,000 mile reliability.

They are for the same measures that have been held up as proof of foreign vehicle quality for years. To my knowledge there is not an award measure for the timeframe that you specify, so I doubt that you could provide data that says who does make vehicles that meet your 5 - 10 year / 200K bogey. I could find anecdotal evidence supporting such claims for practically any automaker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by medicmike Most people here don't hate anyone.

I recognize that, and as such, my statement was not directed to the group at large. It was directed specifically to the original poster. I apologize for the mis-interpretation.

Two very simple reasons.......I drive vehicles assigned to me by the company. For the near future, company car assignments of hybrid vehicles are restricted to those directly tied to the development of those vehicles. I can drive any hybrid available for a short period of time, but I have to give it back to the development guys. As they become available for public sale, we are focused on making them available to the buying public, not employee purchases. Found this out when I tried to spec a Tahoe 2-Mode for my next vehicle. When the general public has had a chance to buy GM hybrids on the open market and production volumes increase, I will no doubt buy a hybrid or a Volt.

The 2nd reason.....My wife's lease on her vehicle is not up yet. When it is, she will have a hybrid.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues