- http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_li...l?id=20050323d

Visit my newly-acquired website, Volconvo Debate Forums!

Hi Jason:

___I am still waiting to see the Toyota promised “much lower hybrid cost differential” Camry myself … If Toyota can bring HSD down to just a $2,000 premium from the ~ $4K+ premium today, look out. Every other manufacturer will be toast afterwards. HSD equipped - Camry XLE w/ all the toys for maybe $25.5 - $27K? We shall see …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

There are two ways to make money. Either make more money per car or sell more cars.

I predict that one day all cars sold will be hybrids, simply because if a manufacturer does as you say and makes a hybrid with a cost comparable to a standard ICE, it will sell many more.

The only thing is, they can't actually lose money on each sale.

I'm actually pleased to see some luxury hybrids out there. It's helping to dispel the "slow hybrid" stereotype.

You know, I've been seeing commercials for the new GS, and I've thought "yeah, ok...looks nice, but..."

But when I see they're going to hybridize the car (is that a word ? LOL), I go from muted interest to... "wow...I really *like* this car". Why is it that the only cars that really excite me now, are hybrids ? The only thing I wap my forehead about after reading the article, is... "WHY are they only doing RWD and not AWD for the hybrid". And then I just realized as I wrote this - that would be more R&D to fashion a front transaxle where the car didn't have one before - at least the RX was available with 4WD (though most people buy the 2WD). Still - in this class of car, these days, AWD is becoming a prerequsite for admission into the lux sedan party. It's not like Toy couldn't afford the R&D - and they *had* to be considering hybrid for the GS since the beginning of this design cycle. So I'm thinking.... "oops"

I'll be waiting to see pricing for this one... I'll guess 'only' an $8-9 K premium, vs $10 for the RX400h . And if so, then we know Toy's strategy - have the luxury division subsidize the non-luxury. Because they'll never sell Highlanders for $46 (top end ones are about $36 (?) now, if I remember the window sticker I saw correctly), or Camry's for $40K

(Wayne - I just went and priced out an XLE V6 w/ Navi, Sat Radio, Spoiler & Maple Dash at $30K, when I saw your note... they may be discounting now in the non-hybrid form, but you *know* they won't be when they start making them (unlike Honda had to...sadly). And it's not a $18K Standard that's going to be hybridized, it'll be the V6 version (likely the XLE) to improve CAFE and preserve margin.

As far as why I picked the model / trim / options I did,
I tried to get similar to Honda's EXV6 trim (or mine, but mine has the IMA, of course). You did say "all the toys"...I tried to make it equal to Honda's 'toys' where possible

You're right on the differential, though...at $2K a car (even if on the Toy side), everyone else *is* toast. That's about $30 added to the monthly payment for a lot of folks - at that point, they're thinking.... "I'll save that much in gas a *month*", and buying one pronto.
Oh, well...at least they'll all drive *safer*, trying to max their FE...

Toyota has to be *very* careful in their price differential between Toyota and Lexus Hybrids, however, especially if the technology becomes as big as a lot of people are thinking it's going to get. Because if it gets *big*, and Toy's selling it in most of the comparable lines (ES / Camry, RX / Highlander, etc), the consumer mindset for the most part will be "I want a hybrid, but at the cheapest price - I'm not going to pay 2.x times as much to get hybrid Lexus - I'll have 90% of the Lexus at 70% of the cost". That's exactly why I keep buying Accords over TLs (no hybrid TL this time, either).

Mark

Sometimes we could all use a little less

My hybrid automobiles:

Current:
2006 Honda Civic Hybrid (CVT, w/o Nav)
Magnetic Pearl / Blue - 008661, born 12/28/05
Mods: Neck pillows, Garmin C330 Nav, Draw-tite 1.25" hitch (for bikes, not towing!), Pioneer Inno XM receiver via Aux jack, OEM mud flaps, more to come!

Hypermiler status on 3/12/06 @ 3077mi.

Previous:
2005 Honda Accord Hybrid (5AT/Navi)
Desert Mist / Ivory - 001254
Retired 1/21/06 - LMPG 34.1

New to the site ? Have a question ?
'Search' is your friend - there's a good chance someone has asked / answered your question already, so give it a try!

Hi GreenAndBlue:

___Very well written analysis …

___From my understanding, Lexus is equipping the RXh w/ everything sans the Levinson audio and 1 or 2 other luxury amenities I do not remember right now. RES I believe was on of the two unknown’s? I will check some of the Edmunds RXh forums later on to get the real deal. Anyway, I believe the premium works out to be ~ $4,000 over the exact equipped RX330 minus HSD. Lexus is making far more on the loaded RX and RXh then the stripped ones of course so there is a subsidy heading directly into the Toyota coffers.

___What I am hoping for and I have not seen this one way or the other is the Camry XLE 4 banger w/ all the safety HW (SAB’s, CAB’s, ABS, BA, TCS, and VSC) as well as heated leather, powered sunroof, and the XLE amenities. The Corolla’s 1.8L ICE would be a bit on the smallish side after Atkinsonization imho so the Camry’s current 2.4 Atkinsonized and HSD’ed should be able to do the 0 - 60 dance in the 8.5 - 9 second range. Maybe 45/40 City/Hwy estimates although I am really throwing out a hopeful WAG here. Toyota’s NAVI is the last thing I would purchase given its inferiority compared to Honda’s NAVI. I personally use Mapopolis and a Sirf IIe chipset equipped i-Trek GPS receiver with my PDA’s in all of our vehicles although the wife has a hard time figuring out the various menus so the Honda NAVI will be in her next one. Back on topic … If Toyota can somehow bring about the $2K HSD premium and equip the 4’s w/ it by the 06 release, I would be surprised to see it go out at much more then my guesstimates previously posted. If Toyota actually figures a way to do this that is? And if they did, ****! The Accord as well as the upcoming Ford Fusion, current 500, Malibu, G6, Sebring, and Altima sales just to name a few would fall off their respective cliffs given the cost of fuel today.

___Currently, I am attempting to remove the MDX from the fleet and keep debating the TL w/ NAVI vs. the EX V6 w/ NAVI. That $6,500 in my pocket sure looks good although the amenities of the TL make it a worthwhile comparison. I love the 04/05 TL’s look but having a practical mindset, the TCO is well in favor of the Honda. The wife will not have anything to do with the i-VTEC I4 and it is too bad given the ability to pick up the PZEV from the East Coast for a steal (EX-L w/ NAVI for ~ $23,250) with an even lower TCO, much lower emissions and longer emissions warranty, as well as even better FE. I do have to live with her decision however If the AH would have included the EX series powered Sunroof, I think there wouldn’t be a question as to which one I would be trying to procure right now.

___And another OT note. I just got off my last night shift this morning. You want to get together this weekend? Besides the high moly count in your Blackstone lab oil analysis, I didn’t see the 0 and 100 degrees C Kinematic Viscosity number(s)? I wish I knew what Honda is really using in terms of the viscosity of the break in oil. Great report by the way.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Lexus and Toyota occupy a completely different market space. Nobody considers both when making purchases. Modest-income people don't bother looking at Lexus because it is always too expensive. Likewise, Toyota does not offer the amenities that the rich demand in their vehicles.

So they are completely different market segments. Thus, Lexus is trying to get the people who would not even consider a Toyota but would like a Hybrid vehicle.