"The Civic does technically seat 5 but 4 is a much more realistic number for adults."

That's for sure LakeDude.

I've never been in the back of a Prius, I was talking about my car. I like to sit up very straight and find the back seat too short on headroom. I'm average size (5'10") so I would think tall people would feel very cramped. Looking at the numbers I posted above it looks like the Prius has slightly less rear headroom.

Can't speak about the Prius, but I was pleasantly suprised how much back seat space the 06 HCH has. My wife sat in the front seat with it all the way back and I was still comfortable in the back seat and had no headroom issues. I am 6' and she is 5'-10.

I think that sums it up pretty well. I definitely do not consider my HCH to be a full hybrid when the engine is usually the only thing powering the car and the car can't run without it, even at low speed. But the HCH is still able to pull off remarkable FE considering the limitations of its hybrid drive, so that says alot about its ICE.

The Prius ICE is even better for FE than the Honda's. The Prius uses a very nice engine design with a normal compression stroke and a longer expansion stroke. This is called Atkinson cycle. Think about it, how do they make the power stroke longer than the compression stroke? It is a magic engine, how can Honda ever compete?

LakeDude, I am not sure why you bring your argument with john1701a here. Would it not be better to argue where he can respond ? I have seen his posts on PriusChat ..

A couple of weeks ago I was stopped by a woman who asked my opionion of my Prius, and offered that she was deciding between an HCH and a Prius. I told her my personal experience; told her that a now model HCH was coming out; and concluded by saying either car would be a great choice.

If she had wanted more involved opinion, I would have said:
1. If one car design is favored over another -- pick it.
2. If both designs are acceptable, and most of your driving is in the city, pick Prius.
3. If money is a strong consideration, take into account tax incentives, and then shop around.

Picking the best car for any one person, based on some arbitrary test is just not possible. There is too much variability between drivers to use the GHDB. Engineering trade-offs in each design become manifest in certain driving conditions.

All that said, and first noting I am NOT an engineer, I suspect that the HSD has a richer technological upgrade path ahead of it than IMA. Should that matter to a person buying now ? Only to the extent that the person may want to consider modifying the car to PHEV in the future. Most people would not; I do.

One slightly interesting idea I have mulled around a bit, is how much IMA or HSD add to a car's FE performance. In the case of Honda, we have the hybrid and non hybrid civics. Toyota has the highlander pair. Ignoring for a moment that hybridization may improve a car more or less than an SUV, this data is available from the EPA:

car------city mpg-------hwy mpg-----comments
HiHy-------33-------------38-----------3300 cc 24 valve v6
Hilndr------19-------------25-----------same engine

Percent improvement:
-----------73.6------------52

Perhaps someone could add in Honda data ? I looked at the 06 models, but the engines are different. None of this is pertinent to OP's original question, but I'm going off on a tangent a bit, OK ?

Lastly, regarding Ken's point that the Prius is bigger. I think that car weight, Cd, and frontal area differences would make a better argument. If someone can provide those data for the 05 or 06 civics, I will plug it into Wayne Brown's Prius simulator to see what differences occur.

R2-E2, 2G Prius.
Highway/City/Husband/Wife MPG: 56.5, as of 12/2005, 26K miles

Jac Nasser, Ford President: "We are planning to launch a hybrid version of
this car [P2000] within this year [1998]. We will also make FCEV available in
2004."

Good question.

For one the database is here and I'm here, never been to PruisChat ( ain't got a Prius). For two John is only one famous example, sometimes it seems to me the everybody thinks like John. The actual thing that set me off this time was an online hybrid article, not John. I mention John because his position on this topic is well known.

Actually if you look at the detail and the AR-ness of his website I doubt talking to him would do much good. He seems very rigid in his thinking. In fairness so am I so it would be like the immovable object meets the irresistible force.

You can talk tech details all day long but the bottom line is shown in the database. All that Prius tech really does not count for much to the average user.

BTW I'll freely admit that he Prius does have an advantage or two while new and in good working order. There is no way I can hit the kind of numbers our Fab-4 (plus one) hit on their non-stop mileage marathion. No way I can keep up with Dan and his Prius "Silk Shorts". His average is near my record high tanks. Clearly the Prius has something on the ball.

Personally I think the Honda would make a better choice in an ageing car because it will run even after the main pack gives up the ghost. A Prius needs every HSD part in working order or the car is going no where fast.

This thread has never been about the Prius being bad or even about the Honda being better, it isn't. It is a matter of choice and I believe the Honda is an equal, depending on your needs. Clearly if you need a hatchback the Prius is the logical choice. All I'm saying is that the "mild" hybrid design of IMA is every bit as good as HSD in real world conditions. The database proves it.

man after reading this thread deciding between a 2001 prius and a 2003 civic is going to be harder than ever!

from snooping around yes the prius has room for a much more potenial mileage breaker. But now I just want to get a civic to see if that quote can be broken. Plus from what I read the civic is a much more comfy car than the first gen prius. (plz lets not bring the prius II or the civic II in here, i'm too poor and their cars are leagues of their own plus mileage is very similar but so far mileage from older cars are a bit better thanks to break in) And little details like styling, comfort, noise, and FE are going to make the decision between the two harder than ever before ;(

i got around 20 km a liter when i drove a civic 5 spd using advanced hypermiler techniques
and now I drive a salvage nwh20 prius that gets almost to 25 km/l with 192,000 km to date.

If you're buying used, the decision making might just come down to availability of "acceptable" models. Acceptable meaning: of course you'll find lots of used Pruis and Civics out there, but only a few of them will have a color, condition, mileage, etc that you'd be willing to pay their asking price on. So, perhaps when you decide to take the plunge, it won't be as hard as you think!

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