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Fuel Economy & Emissions Talk about the mileage database, EPA, hypermiling, gas and driving strategy.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2006, 06:34 PM
gpsman1's Avatar
Hybrid & Ethanol Expert
 
Real Name: John
Location: N.Colorado & S.Minnesota
Hybrids: 2005 Ford Escape FWD, 2000 Honda Insight
Posts: 2,633
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

Hi Debbie. You can slide cardboard in front of the radiator and behind the plastic grille without tools if you have two or more smaller pieces. To use just one solid piece, yes, it is a big help ( maybe a necessity ) to remove the two silver bolts on top that hold the plastic grille on, thus giving you a wider "slit" to slide the cardboard through. It helps to remove the hood release lever also, but you can work it in with this still attached.

Yes... running the cabin heat at a high setting is like having an additional radiator, and would help prevent an overheat if you ever get into "borderline" conditions. You would need to be watching a temperaure gauge though to know when you were getting "borderline".

I put mine in ( the cardboard ) in early october, then had a couple 78 degree days ( go figure ) and I took it back out. Now, we had an 80 degree day in November ( broke all records, can you say Global Warming?? ).
I also don't want to take it in and out all the time. But SHOULD be fine with it in full time from now on. I'm working on something like mini-blinds that can be left in year round, and can be adjusted by string or lever, but that's a few days or weeks of R&D down the road.

Making the car ACTUALLY WARMER is much better than "faking the sensors" something I considered also. The radiator block will have zero negative effects to emissions or engine parts, as long as you avoid the overheat. You are literally giving the car summer conditions in winter.

Next step is a warm air intake, but that looks difficult ( to me ) with a FEH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DebbieKatz
John --

Can you tell me about your cardboard radiator block? I thought it was just going to be a matter of slipping the cardboard down between the grille & the front of the radiator, but that's not possible without tools, & I'd rather not take anything apart (I generally have 2 left thumbs when it comes to mechanical things). So the only thing I can see is covering up the front of the grille on the outside.

Am I on the right track? Thanks in advance!

P.S. - In the case of sustained highway driving, would turning up the heat in the cabin help draw excess heat off the engine? I used to do that in my old Toyota in the summer on the old stop-&-start IL tollway.

.

Gasabout $0.03/mi
Gasabout $0.06/mi
E85about $0.06/mi

WORLD RECORD MTE?
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2006, 07:14 PM
Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Terence Murphy
Hybrids: Prius 2006
Posts: 8
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

Thanks for all the info. I'll have to do some measurements of highway gas mileage early vs. late in my commute, to try and measure how much of the effect is due to air resistance vs. how much is due to cold tires and transaxle.

-Terence
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2006, 07:22 PM
Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Dave
Location: Southern California
Hybrids: Blue Ribbon Metallic/Ash TCH
Posts: 188
Question Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

I'm curious as to how pronounced the effect of colder weather is on mileage. I live in sunny Southern California so I don't anticipate much in the way of cold weather unless I take the car up to the mountains when I go skiing.

Minimum temperature in the winter at night seldom drops below 45 F and the average temperature even in January is in the mid-50 F area.

Looking at a few of the figures I could see, it looked to me like a drop from 70 F to 50 F would lower FE about 5%. Does that number seem accurate?

.

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2006, 07:43 PM
Hot_Georgia_2004's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Steve
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Hybrids: 2004 Civic CVT Hybrid
Posts: 1,680
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

I have another angle, and that is rolling in N while idling. (If you have a problem with that then don't do it) And Face-out.

You might want to assess if this is possible for at least part of the first couple minutes after start-up.
The idea is to keep engine load to minimum while the cylinder walls, bearings, bushings etc are still stone cold.

For example:
I park I face-out in opposed to pulling in. The action of stopping and reversing direction made while backing in or out consumes far less fuel on a hot engine than a cold one so it makes sense to always face-out.

My paticular situation allows this:
I wait only a few seconds after start-up before putting in gear (Only enough time for the oil to circulate), but only add enough gas to "nudge" and get it rolling, then I shift to N. (Keeping the engine on)
I roll about .3 miles to the end of my subdivision (The entrance) before going to D. It doesn't sound like much but it is the difference of ~15MPG vs 40. I baby it with an incredibly light foot as possible as I mingle into the traffic.

Instead of jumping right onto the 70MPH limit freeway on the closest ramp with a partially warmed, fuel-sucking engine I drive the less traveled frontage road to the next exit- still light footed. With the extra few miles in warm-up I get onto the freeway with a much warmer engine.
(I say extra few miles in warm-up, but I go that direction anyway)

When I get to work I am already thinking about the time I'll be starting up later.

On the hot engine I drive to the top of the furthest parking deck away from the gated entrance and face-out.
After work I start, wait a few seconds, Nudge it in D then switch to N and roll about .4 miles through an abandoned deck and shut her down to wait for the gate to lift.
After it lifts it's another nudge then back to N and roll again for a total of about .8 miles.
That's .8 miles of load-free warming engine and once again instead of getting 15MPG I'll average about 40-45.
A few more opportunities to roll in N while in the first few minutes makes a great difference.

I also keep cabin heat to cold for the 1st 10 miles or so of my trips which helps concentrate the heat exclusively in the engine.

Granted Atlanta is not the Great White North but is not Florida tropics either. Winter nights are usually below freezing. (But not usually zero) and my car parks outside.

Your situation is different than mine of course, but you might want to take a look at your own drive and see if rolling in N during warmup is possible.

Hope that helped anyone.

.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2006, 08:32 PM
gpsman1's Avatar
Hybrid & Ethanol Expert
 
Real Name: John
Location: N.Colorado & S.Minnesota
Hybrids: 2005 Ford Escape FWD, 2000 Honda Insight
Posts: 2,633
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

The park face out idea is one I often use.
After all... in the case of the FEH, it only goes in reverse with battery power.
When I get home ( hot ) I'm in EV mode. I can use EV to back UP the driveway and/or into the garage.

Next A.M. when the gas engine HAS to run ( cold ) I'm already pointed head-out down an inclined driveway. ( Sometimes I'll coast in N down that slope before even starting! )

.

Gasabout $0.03/mi
Gasabout $0.06/mi
E85about $0.06/mi

WORLD RECORD MTE?
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2006, 02:30 PM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first
 
Real Name: Bob
Location: Huntsville, AL
Hybrids: Prius Classic 03
Posts: 5,200
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

The following web page has a number of reports on hybrid electric fleet performance including during cold weather:

http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml

For Prius pilots, I'd recommend the Yellowstone report:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/yellowstoneprius.pdf

Bob Wilson

.

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My
other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2006, 02:55 PM
Hot_Georgia_2004's Avatar
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Real Name: Steve
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Hybrids: 2004 Civic CVT Hybrid
Posts: 1,680
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

When reading those documents one needs to take into account those are not privately owned vehicles but part of a government fleet.

I can't say for Prius but I do have the 2004 HCH CVT and 28MPG yearly average is just rediculous. I personally do not take any of those figures seriously- unless doing research for a government fleet vehilce..

.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2006, 07:49 PM
HafNHaf's Avatar
Active Enthusiast
 
Real Name: Andy Goldstein
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Hybrids: 2000 Honda Insight
Posts: 136
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

i have a choice of either one mile @ 35mph to a divided highway, then 55 mph for 4 miles until i get to the freeway.

-or-

3 miles through town @ 25 mph, then one mile @ 45 mph until the freeway.

i kill all charging of the battery pack using MIMA, and by going through town i can hit 60 mpg before i get to the freeway. going the other way i am lucky to hit 45 mpg.

slow and steady, very light load when warming up is the way!

.

2000 Honda Insight. Kenwood MP3 head unit, Blaupunkt door speakers, dual Cobalt amps, 3 MTX stealth subs, 4th very-high-mounted brake light, Sumitomo tires, yellow-top, hot induction air mod, tinted, SG2, MIMA, center armrest.


best tank 82 mpg
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:40 PM
DebbieKatz's Avatar
FEH Tsaritsa
 
Real Name: Debbie
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Hybrids: 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid
Posts: 60
Default Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpsman1
Hi Debbie. You can slide cardboard in front of the radiator and behind the plastic grille without tools if you have two or more smaller pieces. To use just one solid piece, yes, it is a big help ( maybe a necessity ) to remove the two silver bolts on top that hold the plastic grille on, thus giving you a wider "slit" to slide the cardboard through. It helps to remove the hood release lever also, but you can work it in with this still attached.
Thanks, John --

In the end, I didn't have the courage to actually take anything apart. I ended up cutting a piece of cardboard to fit in the "U" of the upper front bumper & taping it on the front of the grille. I printed a large-sized picture of the Ford logo & taped that on the cardboard

This is only my second day with the grille covered up, but even though the temps have been in the high 30's-low 40's, my FEH is parked right now with 38.8 on the NAV display - I *know* that's better than this time last year

Quote:
Yes... running the cabin heat at a high setting is like having an additional radiator, and would help prevent an overheat if you ever get into "borderline" conditions. You would need to be watching a temperaure gauge though to know when you were getting "borderline".
One of the things I've missed on my dash display is the temp gauge

Also, I liked the mini-blind idea - let me know if you get it worked out

.

Purrs,
Debbie




I my FEH
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2006, 03:14 PM
DebbieKatz's Avatar
FEH Tsaritsa
 
Real Name: Debbie
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Hybrids: 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid
Posts: 60
Smile Re: Highway mileage in cold temperatures

An update - it's been a week since I covered up the grille of my FEH, & I've been very pleased with the results.

During my regular Monday-Friday commute, my mileage gradually increased - at one point, it got as high as 42.1mpg, according to the NAV display - & on Friday I finished up with 40.5.

Then on Saturday we drove down to Roscoe, IL (about 76 miles from Milwaukee) for the afternoon. The temperatures were in the 40's, so I turned the heat all the way up & kept an eye on the dash display for the temperature light (I *really* miss having a temp gauge!) as I turned it down, one notch at a time. When we got there the NAV display showed 38.8mpg, & when we got home, it showed 37.0mpg.

I know this is pretty good for this time of year & driving on the highway, especially through some pretty hilly country, but I really miss my 40+mpgs

.

Purrs,
Debbie




I my FEH
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