Hi,

I need some help. I'm having a hard time selling that driving an hybrid is better for the environment and also that when changed, the battery will not create more pollution than what as been save in fuel efficiency. They don't believe in the fuel saving either.

This debate occurs in a french canadien car forum I'm following. Mostly nobody believe in the good effect you create when you drive an hybrid. They say i'm a fool to drive one.

Is there any official study I could use to back my saying?

Thanks.

 

I wish there was a study handy, and there may be. One this is for sure - the lead-acid 12 volt batteries are far more toxic than the hybrid batteries.

Hope that helped a little...

 

I've heard an argument that it pollutes more with the hybrid battery to manufacture, but NiMH is not toxic and is recycalable.

Delta Flyer has a good point, and perhaps the might think you're loaded down with an out dated bank of lead-acid cells like the old EV's?

If possible, you could always point them to GH and they can see all the info related to these vehicles, or at least the mileage database.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. Trying www.google.com may help you find what you're looking for as well. (Trying Hybrids greenhouse gases study, for example)

If you're looking for info that the HV batteries aren't toxic, I'm not sure how much straighter from the horses mouth you can get than the battery engineer at Ford, who stated it to me at the Ford Escape Hybrid Experience in Dearborn last summer.

If you're looking for information on the greenhouse gases, and the emissions, the USA EPA websites have some good information there about them. www.epa.gov , www.fueleconomy.gov

 

bon jour Jean,

This is difficult to answer since each hybrid has unique characteristics. But for a general approach, see if the Canadian department of transportation has a definition of the 'average' Canadian car. Then use this as the standard to compare to your HCH. For example, the US average car got ~24 MPG and my Prius is getting 48.7 MPG. Choose the 'average' and use it as a rhetorical hammer. If someone offers a realistic, non-hybrid as an alternative, be courteous and agree that both cars have merit. It is not the 'or' but the 'and'.

Check with Google and search for NiMH and recycle and chemistry. It turns out that NiMH batteries are fairly non-toxic and easily recycled.

Use the GreenHybrid database and say, "Well that is what the drivers are reporting." Do you have something better?

Smile and say "A happy <insert your> L/km fool."

In the model comparision area, I posted some URLs to a US and also a Canadian fleet report of hybrid electric performance. There are many excellent points although I'm more familar with the Prius than the Honda technology.

bonne chance!

Bob Wilson

 

Jean,
The report by the Union of Concerned Scientists titled, "A New Road" has a lot of good information in it. It's a little dated at this point, but it is, I believe, the study that coined a lot of the terminology that's being bantered about, mild hybrid, full hybrid, etc. I could be wrong there, though.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but it may help. You can download a .pdf copy at http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-c...ad-report.html

 

Thanks for all the information, I'll read and use it to plead my case.

 

I believe that it is spelled out on the Toyota website that they offer a $200 bounty for each returned NiMH battery, and that they do their own recycling.

The issue always reminds me of a post on the Yahoo toyota-prius site, claiming to quote from a newspaper that Prius batteries were hazardously piling up at some landfill. Searching the web, I could find neither the story, nor evidence that the named newspaper actually exists. Was this a "professional troll" sighting? Hmmm.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/TailpipeTally/

Will allow you to compare emissions among vehicles. Their results do not always agree, though.

I would like to see a definitive accounting of the financial costs associated with CO2 and pollutant emissions. Published studies vary widely, and as you might imagine these are very contentious issues.

DAS

 

If people are already convinced they're right (with no proof), it's not easy to change their minds. Most opinions are usually based on ignorance or emotions, not facts. They see you as the crazy one much like 100's of years ago when "they" said the Earth revolved around the sun and many, many other 'facts' that have been proved wrong over time. The majority has been wrong about many things over the centuries.

Saying that, however, the batteries are recycled at a very high rate just like regular 12V batteries, however the hybrid batteries are less toxic and they last much, much longer than the 12V battery. I read about the hybrid battery recycling from a Toyota spokesperson and other sites. Advances in batteries are coming out almost daily too so who knows what'll be available in next 5-10 yrs. I found this quote:

"More than 97 percent of lead-acid batteries are recycled, according to the Web site of the Chicago-based Battery Council International (BCI). This compares to 55 percent of aluminum beverage cans, 26 percent of glass bottles and 71 percent of newspapers.

The BCI reports on its site that the average new lead-acid battery is composed of 60 percent to 80 percent recycled lead and plastic." The BCI site might be good to cruise.

The article:
http://www.highbeam.com/library/docf...G%3AResult&ao=

For the gas emissions (air pollution), I don't see how they can argue it's bogus as that's the easier part to prove with any smog test. Let them stand behind a regular car and breathe deeply vs. your car Many cities have electric buses, UPS is replacing many of their vans with alternative fuel vehicles, etc. so it's not a fad but a reality of the world today. I can't wait to buy an all electric car that drives 400+ miles/recharge. Most people commute less than 100 miles/day anyway.

Mileage does vary with drivers (and road condition, weather) but it does with gas-only cars too. I've read a few stories of Prius owners getting horrible mileage like high 30's but I am sure that's rare. I do think people are misled somewhat by the dealers into thinking that they can drive just as they do now and get the sticker mileage. We all know by now how bogus the EPA sticker mileage is especially for city driving (you can search on this site for that discussion and links to news stories). Even with all that, the huge majority of owners exprience higher mpg and some who are willing to alter their driving habits a lot, experience much greater mpg. I just read of a real road trip with a group of Prius drivers that got over 100mpg - more to prove a point than to say people should drive like they did. If driving 'normal' = 50mpg that's still fantastic.

http://www.toyota.com/hybridsynergyv.../marathon.html

Don't waste your time convincing these people, they've already made up their minds. Just be content in knowing you're saving gas and helping the environment. People complain about spending more for a hybrid and want to know their return on investment, but they never ask that question when they pay $$ for options like navigation systems, heated leather seats, etc. so why is a hybrid option any different. I'm sure in 5-10 years things will be very different as more cars will be hybrids of some sort, car shapes will change to support higher mpg too. I don't expect the oil companies to let gas prices decrease significantly in the future.

 

Just found this one, pretty good about recycling batteries and they mention that same skeptics you know about "yeh but the batteries will pollute landfills."
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005...we_be_wo_1.php

I guess your group will have to come up with other reasons that aren't so easy to disprove

Deb