http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

list of current top tier suppliers

 

A member here did some due diligence on them. Something not quite right, though I've not been able to find a definite 'fact or fiction' about it from anywhere.

https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...2992#post32992

I find it odd that there is no POC information on the site, and no links to the makers who created this new "fuel standard" or no links to the fuel retailers.

here:http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/r...rf/rfgperf.htm )

Edit... Some further searches found that this is apparently real, but is a SELF-CERTIFICATION program- you meet the spec if you say you do. There is no oversight whatsoever, although the sponsors can request that a fuel seller remove themselves form the "top tier" listing if they determine noncompliance.
The program started in May 2004, which explains some of the sparseness of information.
http://www.sigma.org/meetings/handou...TIERslides.pdf

I found this on the GM site: http://www.gm.com/automotive/fueleconomy/detergent.html

Bottom line- the car makers would like to see a more consistent fuel standard with more detergents to alleviate fuel system/emissions-related repair costs (which are almost always warrantee repairs, so it costs them directly). Big Oil is not necessarily for this, so these car makers are trying to use "Top Tier" as a carrot that provides product differentiation to entice fuel companies to improve their fuels.

 

Thanks for all the links, I try to go back through old posts since I am relatively new, but it is a chore at times.
I have always been skeptical of gas stations, thier quality, octane levels, and accuracy of the pumps. I know here they only get tested once a year. That gives plenty of time to 'play', especially if they just had the test completed. Going by honor code is businesses doesn't always work. I guess I will have to try out some of the local places again, I have been car pooling and not bought much gas in a while. I will probably go with Chevron/Texaco and maybe Shell too as recommended by several links ... one of the other links unfortunately doesn't have FL in it (epa.gov link).
I do know that you should NEVER fill up when they are dropping the fuel or for a while afterwards until it can settle. That is when you are most likely to get water and other bad particles into your tank. I know there is suppose to be a certain in-tank inch limit before they are mandated to have them pumped and cleaned from water build up. I also know that is somewhere above 2-3" but I don't recall how far (probably relates to the height of the pickup). That is the level of water that was in the diesel tank in a city fleet gas filling yard I worked for, the gas tanks were a bit lower in thier measurement.
I am just happy the trend will be better fuel in the future, including lower sulfur levels.
Does anyone know if consumer additives are harmful or worth it? I could always go that route to make sure my car will last as long as possible. even if it is $1/tank for the cheap stuff, or the expensive stuff every few thousand miles. I don't know how early or often it would be acceptable either. I have never had a 'new' car, so I am used to going through the hassle of cleaning up and fixing someone else's headache. I just want to treat this car the best I can and do any and every bit of preventive maintainance possible, but don't want to do too much and harm the car either.

I do just want to thank everyone here for being so helpful and informative. I want to thank Jason for making this site for people to get together and share thier thoughts, ideas, and help. The larger this community gets the better it will be for all of us. I reccommend it to anyone I see with a Hybrid, and also have told the dealerships to inform the new car buyers to come to this group so they can be happier with thier cars and in turn happier with the dealership and car manufacturer .

 

Much of the detergent is simply ethanol. Many times that is also the same thing used to boost octane from 87 to 89/93. No problems there whatsoever- every engine built today is OK for up to 10% ethanol.

As for a station 'playing' with their pumps- highly unlikely today. Its just not worth the trouble- and judging by the quality of help at most stations, it wouldn't be pulled off successfully anyway.

Waiting a day to get gas at a station that just got filled up is wise for the reasons you mention, although much less of a problem now than a generation ago.

Off topic but related, the EIA website lists oil import sources. In 2005, Shell, Sunoco and Citgo were the major chains that imported no Mid-East Oil. Historically BP and Hess also get very little from there too. Sunoco gets theirs from W. Africa, as does Shell (along with North Sea). Citgo is owned by the Venezuelan gov't. So pick your poison- none of it comes without significant political strife behind it.

However, for being non mid-east supplied and top-tier certified, Shell wins in my book. Though I usually end up at BP.

Overall, there are few issues with getting gas from anywhere nowadays. The industry is very interdependent- no chain can claim full ownership of all the product at the retail level- its all been mixed in pipelines and at distro centers with other refineries' product. Joe's gas'n'go is probably from the same distro pointas what you get at a name brand down the block, at least at the 87 octane level.

 

so ... in theory it would be best to simply buy 89 or 93 octane. Not because it would have anything to do with mileage, but because it is a 'cleaner' fuel no matter how you look at it ... and even though you get no instantaneous benefits from it, you get a long term benefit of knowing you have a cleaner engine.

I personally don't find the 10-20 cent difference matters anymore. It did when I was paying $0.699-/gallon (where the difference of 11 gallons would be an extra 3+ gallons between reg & prem.), but at $2.339+, not only is it less difference than the cost of 1 gallon, but if I don't buy a frappachino/soda/water on that visit and I get the difference back anyway, and it also equals the amount of one of the 'every time you fill up' additives without having to put it in (or walk in and buy it if you use credit/debit card).

I don't know the effects of a higher octane on a lean-burn engine, or the store bought additives (cheap every tank ones or the only use once every 3000 miles ones). I did notice in the manual to use AT LEAST 86 octane or above, but had no limit of how high of an octane you could use. So to me, premium is ok as far as they are concerned, but no reasonable benefits in thier opinion of you using it. Also, isn't the fuel in Japan on ALL levels have a higher octane level than in the USA? I will try to look it up, I don't remember where I read it so I will try to find it.

As far as shady gas stations, it was more of curiosity of whether an independant owner would try to make that extra buck. They control the mixers, so they can adjust if you are getting 89 or somewhere higher or lower than that figure.

With waiting a day to fuel. That would be nice, but we have some that refuel everyday. A lot of high fuel consumption vehicles here (think jacked up trucks with oversized tires, hummers, suvs, dualies, old cars, camaros, etc). Most of the stores are closed at night, but the truckers don't schedule themselves to drop after or at closing or I would do all of my filling in the morning to be safe. So it is kind of a crap shoot and hope you get lucky and see the tanker before you pull in or hope that he was there several hours before.

again, when I was working at the city fleet gas station, If no one would come in during the dump or around an hour afterwards, it seemed to be fine. But, if he dumped the fuel when it was busy, I would end up having to change out most of the pump fuel filters that day. It seems that even though they are on the clock (and stereotyped of being lazy) they hated wasting their time filling up on a slow gas pump (except for maybe a couple who enjoyed the excuse for the break). It would sometimes become rediculous though, slower than a gallon a minute or more. So ... you do have SOME protection from the bad gas, but those filters only stop so much, and I think stop some water too. They look very much like a common oil filter on a normal sized car, the diesel ones are a little bigger and much taller/longer.

Sorry if I am not writing properly, kinda tired but can't sleep

I just want to thank you again GoNavy, I appreciate the facts AND opinions.

 

I wouldn't use higher octane gas than necessary, nor would I use third party additives unless I knew there was a real problem with the local fuel supply. Honda warns of a certain type of additive that shouldn't be used, but unless they recommend using certain additives or using higher octane gas I don't think it's a wise precautionary step. Gas stations have marketed their "mid-grade" and "top-grade" gasolines as if they have magical cleaning properties, implying that the 87 octane doesn't have it, but that's not the case... it's just marketing hype, also you'll get better fuel economy using 87 octane if you car is designed to run on that, higher octane fuels contain less energy per volume.

 

ok, so the major brand companies for certain will have the same additive packages in the low grade as in thier higher grade fuels (such as Shell/Texaco and Chevron)? Thanks for the clarification. So, should I look for 86 (opposed to 87) octane if I can find it since it is the lowest reccommended level from Honda? Although it is only 1 point, it is only 2 extra for mid-grade. I guess I could call up because I don't think I have EVER saw a pump with less than 87 in my life.

 

You're welcome. Its so hard to unwrap the myth from fact around fuels, and I am not that knowledgeable- seeing questions here prompts me to keep researching and passing on what I learn.

I do agree with Schwa. Detergent may not be bad, but plain 87 from Joe the (reputable) gasman is what the engine was designed for. Its what I use. Premium detergents can help...in certain cases (notice that the test procedures for TT gas start with a very fouled engine). You will not, however, see an MPG improvement unless the manual specifically calls for premium- and even then you may not get better mpg. I've got several tanks logged specifically to look for a change...nothing- maybe a bit worse mpg.

Looking through the EPA sample data, average fuel in many RFG areas already meets TT specs for sulphur, aromatics, olefins, etc, with the exception of ETOH if you live in an MTBE area. The car makers are striving to have a uniform gas spec nationwide because it will reduce their warrantee costs. There are many issues and compponents to what goes into fuel and why; detergents are a very small piece relative to things like GHG, smog precursor emissions, etc which are far more important IMO.

There is at least one member who, with very short drives and always-cold engines, has stated a pretty strong case for NOT using premium/detergent gas all the time under those conditions. He's wrecked 3 engines in fairly short periods with premium gas, according to him. I think what he says is correct, fo rhis particular situation.

And one of the major points of the TT slides I linked to was "marketing differentiation." Using subtle differences to set one product apart...aka marketing hype. Yes higher levels of detergent gas will help some engines (see test procedures), but a new engine properly cared for, using a variety of fuel sources (switch up your brands & stations) will very likely not have any issues at all.

Disclosure: I am a huge fan of ETOH as a supplement/replacement fuel. I think it should be marketed as such, and not as a magic elixr to solve engine woes.

 

A couple of things:

1. “Dry gas” is primarily alcohol, but it can be ethanol or methanol. The manufacturer won’t always give you the formula of their product, but they often tell you the flash point. If it is 11C (52F), it is essentially pure methanol. If it is 17C (63F), it is essentially pure ethanol. Ethanol does not take up as much water as methanol, but it’s also not as poisonous.

2. Detergents and additives for gasoline do a number of things. They keep the fuel injectors and throttle body cleaner and working better (less wear of the injectors so the fuel injection pattern is better). They slow down the build-up of deposits on the valves and spark plugs. Deposits on the valves can have adverse effects on the combustion process, which can result in the electronic controls retarding the spark and reducing engine power/fuel economy. Deposits on the spark plugs also affect the combustion process and how much energy is put into the air-fuel mixture to initiate the combustion process.

3. The effect of using a gasoline with less detergent/additives typically takes years, and thus is a very gradual process. I guess the question ultimately is how long you typically own your vehicle and do you want to pay more for gasoline with higher levels of additives/detergents, pay more for gasoline with less detergents/additives because you use more because of deteriorating fuel economy or pay for servicing the vehicle to clean the throttle body, injectors, cylinders/valves, etc. Where do you want your money to end up?

 

Please excuse my naive-ness but what is ETOH?

I understood that the higher octane would not increase fuel mileage and may have a very slight negative effect, but I was thinking the longevity of the engine, long term cleanliness. I plan to own this vehicle a very long time, unless the next generation in about 6 years makes huge leaps in fuel economy beyond what my level will be and would still keep it as a supplemental car then as well. If higher octane will cause problems as you stated that someone else lost three engines from it, well, that will definately put me more towards NEVER using a higher octane unless it is the ONLY option where I am filling up.

So ... what would be a good fuel system cleaner and how often to use it to keep things cleaner in the long run and not harm any components. I have thought about writing Honda and asking what they felt would be the best maintainance for all systems, but thought that would not be something they would give a lot of time to respond to. Also, what other things can I do to increase the life of my car other than following the procedures in the manual. I have always had (very) used cars and try to rehabilitate them. It is nice to not have those problems or worries and plan to keep it that way.

I think I will take the advice and switch back and forth between a couple brands, seems like a logical thing now that I think about it. If they use different additives, that have different properties, then you get the benefit of all of them.