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Fuel Economy & Emissions Talk about the mileage database, EPA, hypermiling, gas and driving strategy.
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  #1  
Old 12-12-2006, 06:40 PM
catseye's Avatar
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Real Name: John
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
Hybrids: 2006 Toyota Prius
Posts: 2
Default Total Cost of Hybrid on the Environment

Okay, this is my first post here, I would be surprised if this hadn't come up before, I tried to find it, but I couldn't, so here goes:
On my BMW forum, the subject of Hybrids and how much they really add to the pollution once you count in manufacturing came up, and some of the people countered that once you count the additional manufacturing costs, and the more polluting types of processes involved, the hybrid did not really save much wear and tear on the environment. A graph was presented, and though it iss in Japanese, it seems to show some validity to the claims:
Click the image to open in full size.
And here is how the discussion went, from the perspective of the hybrid not being a viable alternative:
Quote:
It shows the Prius emitting (660-320) 340 units of CO2. The imaginary equivalent emits (940-180) 760 units of CO2. There are hundreds of Priuses in the greenhybrid database and the average is 48MPG... and there are a lot of extreme hypermiler types there. If the Prius is getting 48MPG, then based upon the chart, the imaginary vehicle is getting 21.47MPG. That's total bullshit. A 5-speed Matrix, which is slightly larger (and is driven by normal people, not the greenhybrid constituents) get's 30.5MPG according to user surveys at fueleconomy.gov.

If you adjust the imaginary car in the chart to receive 30.5 MPG, it would use
482 units of CO2... 278 points lower. Subtract that from the previous value of 1000, and you get 722 CO2 units. SURPRISE! That's the same as the Prius in that chart! Click the image to open in full size. (well, as close as one can guess... it's low res)

Based on the info in the chart, the Prius doesn't have any postive effects on CO2 emission over a manual trans equivalent car. It would obviously have a small benefit over an auto trans car.

I should point out though that the chart I had actually mentioned the number of miles traveled, and it was something ridiculously low like 80k miles or something. If you got 150k out of a Prius without changing the battery and then ditched it, and if you did the same with the equivalent car, then the Prius would be a winner in terms of CO2 emissions.
and
Quote:
I don't read Japanese, but the site I got the link from said that car B was the Prius, and car A was a comparable car in both size and price. The light blue and dark blue bands have to do with manufacturing and raw materials. The yellow band has to do with the service life, (gasoline/pollution and such). Then those grayish bands at the top have to do with the cars 'end-life'. The whole graph is broken down into CO2, NOx, SOx, particulate matter, and non-methane hydrocarbons for each car, and each stage of it's life.

Pretty much what Capt. said above. The Prius wins in most measures, but not by the huge margin that you would believe given it's current "golden child" status. In most areas the pollution is just moved from one part of the cars life to another.
Anyone here have any perspectives on the subject, I'd like to go back with some credible info. Thanks.

Last edited by catseye; 12-12-2006 at 07:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2006, 02:54 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first
 
Real Name: Bob
Location: Huntsville, AL
Hybrids: Prius Classic 03
Posts: 5,613
Default Re: Total Cost of Hybrid on the Environment

Welcome to Greenhybrid.com.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
Okay, this is my first post here, I would be surprised if this hadn't come up before, I tried to find it, but I couldn't, so here goes:
On my BMW forum, the subject of Hybrids and how much they really add to the pollution once you count in manufacturing came up, and some of the people countered that once you count the additional manufacturing costs, and the more polluting types of processes involved, the hybrid did not really save much wear and tear on the environment.
That already came up with the "CNW Marketing" report. Try that in the search function and you'll get a lot of details.


Quote:
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
. . . A graph was presented, and though it is in Japanese, it seems to show some validity to the claims:
Bring the URL so we can use Google and other translation software to understand what is being posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
And here is how the discussion went, from the perspective of the hybrid not being a viable alternative:

and


Anyone here have any perspectives on the subject, I'd like to go back with some credible info. Thanks.
Ok start with this:

1) Use reproducible mileage test results, USA, Japanese or European for the mileage claims. Lay reports are nice but do not reflect the same vehicles driven over the same profile.

2) Burning the same unit of gas releases the same amount of carbon, always. The vehicle with lower fuel burn releases less carbon.

3) The claims about manufacturing energy costs are not supported in peer review papers:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/10...eener-a-prius/

Quote:
Originally Posted by autobloggreen
What is clear, however, is that the conclusions appear to be very different from the results of several other rigorous, scientifically-reviewed studies of the lifecycle impact of vehicles (e.g. Argonne National Laboratory, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).
  • Example 1: These studies conclude that the majority (80-85%) of the total lifetime energy use of a vehicle comes from the driving stage, with the remainder coming from the remaining stages of a vehicle life, whereas the CNW study shows these percentages to be reversed.
  • Example 2: Two Toyota models mentioned in the report, the Scion xA and xB sold only in the USA, are engineered with the same processes, built on the same assembly line, transported and shipped together, distributed through the same dealer network, have the same engines and transmissions, are about the same weight (within 50 lbs.), and have very similar fuel consumption ratings (one just over 35 mpg combined, the other just below 35), yet the CNW study shows the lifetime energy use of these vehicles to be very different (53 per cent).
  • Example 3: The CNW study states that hybrids require more lifetime energy than even large SUVs. Toyota's internal analysis does conclude that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for a hybrid, but that this is overwhelmingly made up for in the driving stage (the 80-85% stage), causing the hybrid to have a significantly lower lifetime energy use.
There are also basic factual errors in the report, for example CNW claim that the hybrid batteries are not recycled. . . .
Bob Wilson

ps. We used to have a "Capt." troll hanging around here but thankfully, he has wandered off. I believe he had a fondness for German cars too.

.

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:


Last edited by bwilson4web; 12-13-2006 at 05:02 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2006, 05:21 AM
catseye's Avatar
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Real Name: John
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
Hybrids: 2006 Toyota Prius
Posts: 2
Default Re: Total Cost of Hybrid on the Environment

I did as you suggested and found the URL of the page with the graph, and translated it. Seems as though something is lost, however, and I can't understand what the point is. Maybe someone else can.....
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2006, 05:48 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first
 
Real Name: Bob
Location: Huntsville, AL
Hybrids: Prius Classic 03
Posts: 5,613
Default Re: Total Cost of Hybrid on the Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
I did as you suggested and found the URL of the page with the graph, and translated it. Seems as though something is lost, however, and I can't understand what the point is. Maybe someone else can.....
I think I've seen an English version of this same page but I won't be able to locate it until later today. Ken might know where to find it. However, it is pointing out how low the emissions are from the Prius.

Bob Wilson

.

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

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Old 12-13-2006, 05:48 AM
 
 
 
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