Hi All:

___In regards to the threads title, Defrost/A/C use in the winter as well as A/C and accessory use year round will affect a hybrid’s FE more then a comparable automobile with a larger ICE. There is nothing we can do about a 3 - 6 HP load on a 67 - 129 HP ICE vs. a 3 - 6 HP load on a 130 - 255 HP one. The smaller ICE’s can be far more fuel efficient of course but they cannot escape the higher percentage of their available power needed to run the A/C and accessories no matter if said accessories are electrically driven or not.

___And with the above, I still believe the Escape HEV 2 and 4WD although far heavier (3,600/3,800 #’s respectively) are worth far more then my 3,100 # Ranger XLT … They have a lower Cd (FEH = .404) but higher frontal area although I cannot for the life of me find a Cd for the Ranger P/U. The FEH more then likely has a much taller top ratio and final drive with their CVT’s then the Ranger’s 5-speed manual. Along with the gearing, the FEH has the Atkinsonized intake vs. the std. on the Ranger. There are too many high FE pieces going for the FEH vs. my lowly Ranger but the results to date have not shown this to be the case.

___Sdctcher, you bet I cannot wait to get my hands on a 2WD FEH in particular because I still think it is a 40 + mpg automobile diving the same roads and conditions I drive on a daily basis. The utility of the Escape is a huge boon for all hybrid enthusiasts although there is still the issue of price … If I could only convince Mary Ann Wright to let me take her own FEH for a spin for a 5 tank run just to see what is worth on my lower speed city/highway commute EricBecky has far better connections then I do as posted above so maybe he will get a shot again later on this spring/summer? Didn’t you receive a nice mid-40 mpg segment on your test segment in and around California somewhere a few weeks ago?

___Lakedude, no one has really taken the FEH to its limits other then possibly Sdctcher or the Ford sponsored - Fuel Economy run in California where an Automotive writer received 60 mpg over an ~ 2 mile segment. I spoke with both Mary Wright and David Wagner (PhD - Tech Lead - Vehicle Design) about that feat and it wasn’t something that could be reproducible over a distance given the severe pack depletion from full at the start of the run to its depleted condition at the end. We all know the ~ segment limits of an Insight 5-speed (115 - 120 mpg), HCH w/ CVT or manual (Hot_Georgia_2004 and yourself will hit ~ 72/75 mpg respectively by early summer), and a Prius II (Krousdb’s 85 - 87 mpg), but the FEH and the AH are still question marks. I cannot wait to see it but I have a feeling there might be a 45 - 47 mpg high lengthy segment and maybe a 43 - 45 mpg tank in its future. It is just that we haven’t seen it yet so there is no way to post a Hypermiler high and maybe a CR’s overall, City, Highway, and 150 mile run in terms of FE alongside the EPA’s own City/Highway … as of this writing anyway.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

As Wayne said, I had a 4 wheel drive FEH for a week and I think it is a bit harder to get the FEH to slip in EV mode than a 2005 Prius. A bit more of a challenge to hypermile, especially in cold weather.
I mainly got mpg's in the upper 20's but I was able to obtain 30-33 mpg on some trips - pretty good for weather in the 20's. I took a 200 mile round trip and got about 27 mpg, that was at 65mph highway driving with a family of five on board in cold Wisconsin weather. Not bad.
I'm certain if I can retest it in warmer weather, that I can do better.

Eric Powers

MHG Organizer - www.MadisonHybridGroup.com
Hybridfest 2008 - A Hybrid Electric Car Show and More! www.hybridfest.com
Madison, WI July 19 & 20, 2008

thats one thing I like about my TDI

when it got below freezing I would start it and let it idle for 5-10 mins before driving and I drive it like a car and not baby it or coast it anywhere.

I still got 40.3 mpg (city) vs mild weather, coasting down the hill to my home, no RPMs over 2500 during that slow acceleration and got 41.8 mpg (City)

but have to admit the hybrids do get nice MPG. Can't wait till hybrid diesels and clean fuel hits over the next 2 yrs.

One thing you need to consider your hybrids use tiny motors and light weight cars to get those killer MPG. The hybrids aren't designed to be driven like any "normal" car to get its EPA mileage. The hybrid has to be driven slow and with some thought. Many people buy a car to drive not drive slow or how to get it into EV mode so it can get its claimed MPG.

EPA is not real life, we all know that but the public doesn't. Also if someone was really worried about money they would buy a HX instead of a HCH.

I think the accord is a big step since its not a downsized motor and gets better MPG.

Troy, I think the term slow is a personal perception. I've mentioned before that I was one of the worst leadfoots that I've known, and to get behind a car going +5 to +15MPH over the posted limits were just dog slow to me.

I'm sure that 75% of the other drivers observed me as being a wrecklessly fast driver, and to the ones who are trying to squeeze FE out of their vehicles I was just insane.

Being a Dodge guy & living for the thrill of high speed, I recall so many times commenting to my wife "Look at that Honda (or Toyota, VW, etc) going so slow that they have to use the right lane & can't even keep speed.", while I'm ignorantly plowing air @ 80-85MPH.

Admitted on the freeway portion of my commute I'm in the Right lane squeezing FE while most traffic passes by, but I'm also passing other vehicles as well. While I have the option to increase to others speed, even using the cruise control and still get at least EPA, but I'll loose my personal expected FE goals.

I suspect that increasing speed will effect FE in a regular, hybrid, EV, and even a future hydrogen or diesel car.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

driven slow = in its sweet spot and not stressing the tiny motor they use.

if the traffic is driving in the cars sweet spot then you aren't driving slow.


I should have used a different phrase.

Hi Iboomalot:

___The TDI’s are actually kind of slow as well. The 04 Jetta w/ a 5-speed manual as an example is a 10.5 second to 60 automobile just like the Insight. The Golf TDI w/ a 5-speed manual is similar to the HCH w/ a manual at 11.5 seconds. How someone drives afterwards allows either huge mileage and range or … If you want to drive normally, you will receive normally high FE or much less.

The Frugalympics

___Nose to tail type type comparo and the Jetta had its problems in the real world with its lack of fuel economy in particular …

___Diesel’s have their place and when we see ULEV-II releases, I for one will be all over it but as of now, they pollute a ton including CO and HC vs. the many gasoline derived SULEV-II and PZEV’s in particular.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

never said a TDI was all that fast. My Jetta TDI weighs over 3,000 lbs what does an insight weight in at 1887 lbs ???

also a TDI might be 0-60 in 10 secs but even when its battery is low its not going to be running a 0-60 in 14secs

anything that gets 40+ mpg isn't going to be super fast unless its super light.

insight is rated at 11.20 0-60

Hi Iboomalot:

___I cannot help that a Jetta weighs 3,000 #’s the same as I cannot help that a Prius II weighs in at 2,890. That is the way they are. The Insight w/ A/C weighs ~ 1,890 #’s and with a 200 # + driver, receives far in excess of 60 mpg on average let alone what some have received …

___As for less then 14.0 seconds, even with a low battery the Insight will still do a faster dance given what C & D received during their 2004 test of the Prius I and II, HCH, and Insight 5-speed in the side by side. See page 2 of the following for more information about the VW Jetta TDI … Road Tests: 2004 HCH,2004 Toyota Prius, 2004 Honda Insight, 2003 Toyota Prius ___In regards to the Insight 5-speeds performance, it all depends where you get your numbers and which tranny is being discussed.

C&D Road Test: 2000 Insight, Honda Insight, 2000 - 2003, Road Test: 2000 Honda Insight

___I know you love your VW TDI’s and they have their place but in the real world, the hybrid’s are eating VW’s lunch in terms of FE and range although most are probably driving them (their hybrid’s) a bit more conservatively in doing so. This includes world records of range and FE over a segment between the two differing types of ICE’s as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

I don't love my VW it is slow but thats not why I bought it. I have a 482 rwhp corvette for looks and speed.

but for just BSing around town it gets the job done.

49 mpg at 80 miles per hour fully loaded with 2 adults and 3 kids and trunk full of luggage doesn't sound like Iam that far behind any hybrid of equal size.

would be fun to have a 1.6 liter insight would be like my CRXs of the past light, quick , and good MPG.

That beats me. I'm getting 58.6 mpg but I drive really slow to get there. My HCH only gets around 45 mpg at 70mph so at 80 miles per hour it might get around 40 mpg.

My HCH is 1000% better than the old rabbit diesel we had in the old days. I'd love to check out one of the new TDIs.