Originally Posted by AllenF

Interesting that you chose to ignore the example I sited.

Originally Posted by gpsman1

Allen F, you are sadly, mistaken my friend, but that's ok. You probably don't have the education to know any better. So if you'd like an education in this matter, read on.

There is ALMOST ZERO PROFIT in the Plug-in battery market at present.
Most of these custom builds are for experimental and research purposes at this point. They are not quite "consumer ready" but if you have the money, and wish to be the first on the block, you can have one now.

You can buy crap made in China ( including batteries ) at your local Wal-Mart, but you get what you pay for.

In a $35,000 battery pack, which is by all accounts, the "Rolls Royce" of batteries, the best of the best that money can buy, here's what goes into it:

Each cell is made in the USA by A123 systems.
EDIT okay, looking deeper, some of their mass produced batteries are made in Asia, but are developed in Massachusetts. )
These cells have ultra low resistance ( ohms ) and produce ultra low heat.
These cells are ultra light weight.
These cells have ultra high output ( amps ).

Each cell costs ~$12 even when bought in large quantities.
A 50 miles Ford battery takes 1600 cells. You read right, 1600.

1600 x $12 equals $19,200, not including shipping & handling.

Now you need hardware to solder or weld 1600 cells together.
Let's say 50 cents per battery, using brass for high conductivity and low corrosion properties. Add $800.

Now add 200 thermisters. Thats 1 temperature probe for every 8 cells.
Lets say those can be integrated with a volt meter and amp meter for every 8 cells. Lets say you can put that on a PCB ( printed circuit board ) for $5 each. Add $1000.

Now lets add parts and supplies for circuit breakers and surge protectors and other safety measures, all custom made for 300-400 volts and 100 amps, but lets say you can get that all for $500.

Now lets build a custom package, that has to fit in the same form factor as the orginal, but has to hold 50% more weight. Metal case, fiberglass or plastic inserts, etc. Add $2500.

Now you need custom software to interface with the Auto. R&D Time.
While R&D is not a material cost, it takes maybe 4000 man hours to engineer something like this. How do you factor that into a car you make one at a time?

Now what about the labor to assemble all that. Not just INSTALL all that. I mean ASSEMBLE all that... all 1600 cells and hardware. Lets say it takes 200 man hours at $15 an hour. Add $3000.

Now lets add INSTALLATION once you drop off your car for 1 day.
Lets say 2 guys at $15, 16 man hours, Add $240.

Add that up and you have $27,240 in MATERIAL COST.
I know. I was there. I've seen a battery be made from scratch.

Add to that rent on the shop ( $1500 / mo )
Add to that power and utilites for the shop ( $500 / mo )
Add to that insurance for the shop ( $???? )
Add to that tools and diagnostics equipment.
Factor in all the 4000 man hours of R&D.

Now you Allen F. tell me how much "profit" did this company make?
Looks to me that they barely broke even, and are doing this primarily for research, and to kick the big auto makers in the A$$ so they WILL mass produce these at lower cost.

There is nothing low cost / high profit about this.
And that's the truth.

-John

Originally Posted by Billyk

Wow! That is a lot of detail. A question on the HV battery pack. The current (ours) HV battery pack has something like 300 D-Cell sized batteries. The A123 system has 1600! Does this mean each battery in the A123 system is smaller? (How much smaller?) Or is the A123 system battery pack still D-Cell sized but the removal of heating and cooling devices allows this much more individual batteries to be packed in?

I'm also getting at if each A123 system battery is more powerful than the current D-sized battery cell, why go to 1600 cells opposed to current standard of 300? I'm assuming for improved range and performance? But at the expense of price--1300 less cells at $12 each does add up.

Originally Posted by AllenF

Ford could get longer EV runs as well but not if they want to meet the required battery life that the Gov is demanding. A123 is NOT required to meet these standards so they can offer more performance over a MUCH SHORTER LIFE SPAN.

Originally Posted by gpsman1

Allen F, you are sadly, mistaken my friend, but that's ok. You probably don't have the education to know any better. So if you'd like an education in this matter, read on.